CAGED system for lapsteel

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 14 Jul 2014 12:00 am

So after doing some research and hearing MANY Berkeley guitarists who shred and believe in the CAGED system. I started theorising there must be a similar connectivity in repetitive shapes on the Lap Steel Guitar.

If you are unfamiliar with that system google it.

So I started with the modes in my THeory Tuning and realised that I can play all 7 modes using the same shape. If I study the Ionian scale in all it's shapes that means I can play all the modes in all the shapes up and down the neck.

Really cool. So I am trying to find the name to give this technique as on the steel depending on your tuning it is obviously a different shape but I believe this to be revolutionary research or if any of you have prior experiences please share.

Collective knowledge achieves a solution much faster.

Check out my fretboard layout on my blog and you'll see what I mean. It has the notes if the Ionian scale highlighted. Move two frets down it's the Dorian. Enjoy.

Peter den Hartogh · Post by **Peter den Hartogh** » 14 Jul 2014 12:55 am

Stefan Robertson wrote:If you are unfamiliar with that system google it.
Collective knowledge achieves a solution much faster.

Providing specific links would boost collective knowledge and achieve solutions even faster.

Kay Das · Post by **Kay Das** » 14 Jul 2014 1:51 am

Stefan ,

my steel guitar course and instruction to my students is also based on a modified CAGED system. basically on a C6 tuning there are 4 possibities for every scale or chord or riff. some favourable and some not. travelling in Italy-UK at the moment so need to be brief but will be glad to share with you and extend knowledge with your approach when back home at end of month

kay

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 14 Jul 2014 1:51 am

I understand the CAGED system, but I'm not familiar with "Berkeley guitarists."

Is this something to do with Berklee College of Music?

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 14 Jul 2014 7:36 am

The CAGED system is based out of the five standard guitar major chord forms on standard guitar. As a concept, I'm not sure it translates to steel except, depending on the tuning, you have more than one inversion of a given major scale and more than one place to play it.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 14 Jul 2014 7:59 am

Yes, the CAGED system refers to the bar chord shapes on standard guitar... C shape, A shape, G shape, E shape, D shape... all the same chord, 5 different shapes, going up the neck. It's useful for playing solos off of each shape or simply moving between the shapes to play chord fragments, etc.

I'm not sure how it would apply to non-pedal Steel Guitar though, since steel guitarists do not "finger" different shapes. We use a bar, and there are not as many options for major chord positions as regular guitar. The idea of chord shapes would work better on Pedal Steel IMO because there Are multiple locations on the neck to play full (3 note) chords on pedal steel guitar. With non-pedal steel tunings we usually have one location (one fret) to play a major chord, and a couple of other locations to play two notes of that chord, but not the full chord. So a CAGED type system doesn't translate well to non-pedal steel IMO, unless the player is using a lot of 3-string slants.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 14 Jul 2014 8:05 am

Sorry for the type error. Berklee. My autocorrect changed it. Darn technology.

Anyway it would be great getting some ideas about other similar shapes. As I discovered in my tuning that I can do all modes with the same Major/Ionian shape. I'm wondering if this must be the same as guitar.

Simply move the root note on the lowest string 2 frets toward the nut and there is your Dorian mode. 2 more your Phrygian. And so on. The shape is always the same.
If I take a step back to analyse the shapes I think there are about 5 -7 key shapes. That once leaned should enable me to play any mode any key same patterns repeated.

Pretty darn amazing find. I love this instrument.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 14 Jul 2014 8:11 am

Doug Beaumier wrote:Yes, the CAGED system refers to the bar chord shapes on standard guitar... C shape, A shape, G shape, E shape, D shape... all the same chord, 5 different shapes, going up the neck. It's useful for playing solos off of each shape or simply moving between the shapes to play chord fragments, etc.

I'm not sure how it would apply to non-pedal Steel Guitar though, since steel guitarists do not "finger" different shapes. We use a bar, and there are not as many options for major chord positions as regular guitar. The idea of chord shapes would work better on Pedal Steel IMO because there Are multiple locations on the neck to play full (3 note) chords on pedal steel guitar. With non-pedal steel tunings we usually have one location (one fret) to play a major chord, and a couple of other locations to play two notes of that chord, but not the full chord. So a CAGED type system doesn't translate well to non-pedal steel IMO, unless the player is using a lot of 3-string slants.

In my "Theory Tuning" there are many different places to play your majors, minors, dominants and diminished etc.

So I disagree. The "fingering" shape can still apply as far as note/chord locations. As I can easily find 3 or more note chords using this tuning

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 14 Jul 2014 8:11 am

Even though you don't fret different strings to form chords you do the same by using pedals and levers on a pedal steel or slants on a lap. On my lap steel that is a 12 string with Reece Anderson's C6 tuning, it is similar to a caged system based off of the root note and wherever you move that configuration on the neck it will be say, a minor 7th or major 6th, chromatically up the fretboard. Just like a barred chord.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 14 Jul 2014 8:18 am

It might work better on 10 or 12 string lap steels. I was thinking more of 6 or 8 strings. Also, I was thinking of major chord shapes only, since that's what the CAGED system is describing.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 14 Jul 2014 8:19 am

It works both ways, descending and ascending. If you move up one fret, C Locrian is Db major scale, C Aeolian = Eb Maj, C Mixolydian is F major, C Lydian = G Maj, etc.

It actually follows the formula descending: W W H W W W H, which is the same formula as the major scale degrees ascending. So, it is the exact opposite.

Just being able to move the shapes around is not enough, though. We have to learn each note of the modes and the relationship to our chord.

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 14 Jul 2014 8:25 am

http://www.buddyemmons.com/pockets.htm

I find the terminology and presentation a bit unfortunate if you're coming from a different instrument.

But once that has been squared away it turns out everything I need to know is on this page.

It just took (and still takes) time to map that knowledge into my own terminology.

BTW, it took me a very long time to realize that CAGED can become a hindrance to see the fretboard as a whole.

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 14 Jul 2014 8:29 am

http://www.buddyemmons.com/MinorPockets.htm

actually I find those clearer.

Jack Aldrich · Post by **Jack Aldrich** » 14 Jul 2014 9:37 am

I agree with Ulrich. I learned about "pockets" on pedal steel from Buddy Emmons and Jeff Newman years ago. I translated the concept to lap steel when I began playing Hawaiian. Alan Akaka and I work on playing a mele out of the main (I chord) and V chord pockets. It has helped me immensely.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 14 Jul 2014 10:25 am

the 1 main 'con' i see in learning pockets & shapes is that is fine if you plan to play everything in 1 tuning...and stay in that tuning. i've really tried to avoid this on non-pedal steel (we all use pattern recognition in every task somewhat) because i dont want to be so dependent on shapes and boxes. i have found with years of doing this on guitar that you soon switch to auto-pilot and arent listening anymore to your lines - you are just playing the shapes you've gone over a thousand times. the next right note may be 1 fret away, yet its out of your 'pocket' and you automatically jump to to the next shape to get it.

i think also, and mike neer turned me on to this concept years ago - is that the steel is played horizontally much more than vertically. this was a different way of thinking for me coming from other stringed instruments where you learned your scales vertically. that adjustment is essential, imo, to getting a smooth, balanced, fluid sound. i've noticed from doing more and more transcriptions of tunes by great players, the next note hit may be right under the bar on a lower string, but they will often keep the 'flow' going on the upper strings.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 14 Jul 2014 10:33 am

If everything is based on the NNS or one chord how many tunings are you going to play? I can see how the patterns fit between my B6/9, C6/Anderson and open D and G. I think it makes more sense than following tab? But I am not one of the bright bulbs out there.

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 14 Jul 2014 4:28 pm

For Mike Neer...

What is meant by W and H?

Sorry, but I am not familiar what those terms.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 14 Jul 2014 4:36 pm

Tom Campbell wrote:
What is meant by W and H?

W = whole step
H = half step

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 14 Jul 2014 6:26 pm

It's useful to have your bar "trained" to go after scale tones with some accuracy, but the accuracy needs to be gained using larger intervals too. And if you practice scales up and down that's what you'll get good at, which is why I think practicing moving through scale fragments may lead to better music. And learn melodies. There was an unfortunate period in jazz guitar pedagogy where learning Charlie Parker solos note-for-note was held to be the highest peak (1963-1970, say), and it resulted in a lot of boring jazz guitar - that type of close-interval scalar development works great on horns, not so great on other things.

Have you ever noticed just how MANY "jazz steel" solos start out with the same ascending dah-dah dah-dah DAH lick? It's the starting lick from "Straight No Chaser" and it's the first "jazz song" everyone and their dog learns, so to let everybody know you're playing "jazz" that's what to do.... Even if you cast it into a minor mode or widen the intervals, it marks you. Miles Davis and John Coltrane fought tooth-and-nail to blow out the fat happy Ben Websterisms once and for all, they took a lot of heat (What do you mean? NO vibrato?!?) but eventually made their point. With a few very notable exceptions, steel guitar sometimes sounds kinda... stuck, harmonically. Learn your scales, but then don't play them?

It is, and always will be, a tonal instrument.

Jack Aldrich · Post by **Jack Aldrich** » 14 Jul 2014 7:22 pm

Jerome Hawkes wrote:the 1 main 'con' i see in learning pockets & shapes is that is fine if you plan to play everything in 1 tuning...and stay in that tuning. i've really tried to avoid this on non-pedal steel (we all use pattern recognition in every task somewhat) because i dont want to be so dependent on shapes and boxes. i have found with years of doing this on guitar that you soon switch to auto-pilot and arent listening anymore to your lines - you are just playing the shapes you've gone over a thousand times. the next right note may be 1 fret away, yet its out of your 'pocket' and you automatically jump to to the next shape to get it.

i think also, and mike neer turned me on to this concept years ago - is that the steel is played horizontally much more than vertically. this was a different way of thinking for me coming from other stringed instruments where you learned your scales vertically. that adjustment is essential, imo, to getting a smooth, balanced, fluid sound. i've noticed from doing more and more transcriptions of tunes by great players, the next note hit may be right under the bar on a lower string, but they will often keep the 'flow' going on the upper strings.

I play in C13, B11, A6 and G. I know where the pockets are for each tuning.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 15 Jul 2014 2:29 am

Great replies guys.

I brought up this shape concept as it immensely helps learning fretboard notes but I realised also that you can play any note you want outside the melody as long as when it comes time for the right note you hit it at the right time.

So essentially "Straight No Chaser" repetitive opening lines/riffs should be buried.

Stefan Robertson · Post by **Stefan Robertson** » 15 Jul 2014 4:12 am

Kay Das wrote:Stefan ,

my steel guitar course and instruction to my students is also based on a modified CAGED system. basically on a C6 tuning there are 4 possibities for every scale or chord or riff. some favourable and some not. travelling in Italy-UK at the moment so need to be brief but will be glad to share with you and extend knowledge with your approach when back home at end of month

kay

It would be great to get together and discuss sometime Kay.

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