UPS disaster- Carter steel severely damaged - help

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 25 May 2014 3:10 pm

John, a Carter body consists of two pieces of wood: a front apron, a deck and a rear apron made of aluminum. Any cabinet maker given the measurement could knock one together in an hour. Maybe another hour to put on mica.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 May 2014 9:01 am

Brian's right. I worked for a cabinet maker for a while, and they can handle it. We never worked with birdseye maple, or any other maple for that matter, so they may have to source the wood, and may have to purchase an amount to where they would not make much or even lose money unless they quoted a high price. There were also no equipment for working with metal, so the back apron would have to go to a machine shop, or friend, that has a milling machine. But all in all, it may be the only way to get a whole body.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 26 May 2014 9:10 am

You can get maple planks on ebay 36" x8". And also 36" x 4". You can even get birds eye maple. Inc shipping maximum no more than $100

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 May 2014 9:13 am

Wow. You really can find anything on Ebay.

Jack Goodson · Post by **Jack Goodson** » 26 May 2014 11:38 am

you fella's are right about cabinet makers. but how many can take this guitar apart, make a new cabinet , and then re-install all the parts, including changers, endplates, undercarriage,etc, and make it sound and play like original? i don't think so....thanks jack

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 26 May 2014 2:53 pm

Good point Jack but even if you got a body from Carter or wherever you would still have to get someone to transfer the parts. If it was my guitar I could do it, but would not feel comfortable doing it for someone else.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 3 Jun 2014 4:10 am

Jack if I were transferring all the parts to a new body, first I would remove all the parts from the old body and glue it all back together...then I would tape a piece of thin cardboard inside and create a template. I would use a pull rod to find all the screw holes and poke a hole thru the cardboard.

Then I would remove this template and tape it onto the new body. Then I would use a very fine drill bit to mark the holes by drilling thru the cardboard. Then I would remove the template, and my new body would have all the exact places showing where the screws go on the new body. It's not really that hard if you take it slowly. Just my 10 cents worth

Jack Goodson · Post by **Jack Goodson** » 3 Jun 2014 6:36 am

brian: i appreciate all the helpful advice, but if it comes to having to build another body (we are waiting on ups's dicision) it will all be done by a very qualified body builder and steel guitar mfg....thanks jack

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 3 Jun 2014 7:27 am

Larry Bressington wrote: you pay 'Insurance' and they broke it...They didn't have any problem with the way it was wrapped when they took your insurance money did they??? it's 'their' problem!!

yup, you are right...

db

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 3 Jun 2014 11:58 am

About leaving the handle available to the package handlers, I have to ship out two 1963 Fingertips. The cases are solid, but the handles are old. I worry about the handles breaking, or getting snagged up on the conveyors. The D-10 is a heavy brute! Must weigh about 85 pounds in the case. The S-10 is considerably lighter. I'm very worried about shipping them!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Jun 2014 3:53 pm

John, I think I'd build a box for the case, and put a handle on the box.
And remember that certainly the D-10, and possibly the S-10, will ride around the hub on carts pulled at 10-15 mph and may drop off on a curve.
They're heavy and bulky, so probably WON'T ride the belts.
1) you're smart and have done this before.
2) pack guitar so it can't move in the case (brace the leg compartment bulkhead and VP compartment bulkhead)
3)pack case so it can't move in the box.
4) remember that it WILL ride a cart with no suspension, and has a good likelihood of falling from the cart.
If you pack for the likely knocks, it'll be safe. Many people just think "it's going by truck, what can go wrong?" and the truck isn't the problem, it's the hub.

John Brabant · Post by **John Brabant** » 3 Jun 2014 3:53 pm

So the wonderful, kind and awesomely talented Mark Giles will build a new body for the Carter. Whew. Such a relief. Still haven't heard back from UPS ( short for Uncaring Parcel Smashers). Will call them again tomorrow to find out where things are on the damage claim. If it weren't for the support, comradery, and assistance of all the wonderful members of this steel guitarist community, I and Jack would be in a seriously bad state of affairs. Thank you everyone!!!!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Jun 2014 4:05 pm

Carter mechanism, Giles body.
As long as reassembly is by someone good, that should be a DAMN fine guitar to play and see.

John Brabant · Post by **John Brabant** » 4 Jun 2014 1:32 am

Yah. Mark GIles at one time built a lot of bodies for Carter so he has the ability to them EXACTLY to original specs.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jun 2014 3:03 am

sounds like a resolution is in process. Good news..

This happened last week..

My friend purchased a very HI dollar custom made Acoustic from an EBAY seller. He spoke with both the builder and seller before the $4000 purchase. deal made.

Guitar arrives FED EX, no box damage, broken neck. The guitar was not packed properly in the case, it was able to move freely in the neck area 1 or more inches. FED EX is denying the claim. Quite frankly, as they should.

How anyone in their right mind could not take the time to appropriately pack an instrument for shipment is beyond my imagination. It does not take a genius. I purchased from GC, used, easily 6 guitars over the last 2 years, each shipped from various US locations. NOT one was damaged.

I write this and tell this as a reminder..if you do not know how to pack properly find someone who can and will, and I do not mean the counter clerks at the UPS or FED EX stores. Just sticking an Instrument in a case and a box with some packing and/or peanuts will result in another "damage" thread.

My friends custom guitar can be fixed by the builder at a cost of $2000 which quite frankly should be on the back of the seller

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 4 Jun 2014 3:47 am

While thinking about those carts (I FIRMLY believe the carta are the biggest source of steel and amp transit damage, and Buster Brown uses the same carts), I want to point out the design failures of these things.
1) They're STRAIGHT outta the 40s.
A) Solid rubber tires, not pneumatic.
B) Solid axle mounts, no springs or shocks
C) About a 2 inch lip on the cart

So it is CONSTANTLY vibrating like crazy, and it won't take much of a knock to kick it over the lip, if it is on the bottom.

2) They hook 4 or 5 together, and cruise at 10 MPH. Cindy (the Cushman driver in Lenexa) won't know something fell off a rear cart til she comes back.
Most stuff WON'T fall off. But it's a very foreseeable drop. Pack to survive a likely 3 foot drop to concrete at 10 MPH.
I bet 90% of steel guitar and amp damage is Cushman cart-related.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 4 Jun 2014 3:56 am

Yeah John, he should be able to get it exact. What we are talking about is 2 pieces of wood- it's not exactly brain surgery!

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 5 Jun 2014 8:38 am

Brian Henry wrote:Yeah John, he should be able to get it exact. What we are talking about is 2 pieces of wood- it's not exactly brain surgery!

Have you seen Mark Giles' work? It is brain surgery and more!

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 5 Jun 2014 9:02 am

same war stories where UPS refused to pay on damage claims, even where the UPS store did the packing.

The contractual language simply states that UPS is totally liable for the insured value if they packed it OR approved your packing. That's a stinker in their undies because the greedy ones will "approve" anything without even looking, "Just gimme the damn box, stooge." You don't need a lawyer, it's in plain English, no judge CAN refuse it, it's a waste of their time and money to fight it. A point that is easy to make, but the person can get evasive - IF he's a jerk, IF he's unaware of the monetary impact of a godawful stink, perhaps.*

This is, just one of those things I'm afraid. I've lived in the same small town (11,000) for 20 years and been "lucky" enough to know the owner of the local UPS franchise for 15 or so. Nice guy, never a problem - but he knows packing steels (now), because long ago, I opened up the case of one, and showed him my packing and what else was required of HIM - to greatly reduce the number of claims.

MONEY MONEY MONEY

UPS stores are franchises, and if there are too many claims against one particular store, he'll lose his business. I'm reasonably sure that there are also certain codes or info that can accompany a package, something to the effect of "Drop this and you're dog meat."

Secret UPS-owner's cult stuff. There's also a guy here making high-end audiophilia-type speakers enclosures ($3500 for a wood box?), he ships with the same UPS, no problems.

Every single step of the way, every package is in the custody of a traceable human being, whether it's a driver or the owner of a transfer point. I would guess that the nastier problems are happening AT TRANSFER POINTS under franchise owners with multiple stores, "Just mail me the profits" kind of guys. I'm afraid FedEx's got 'em too.... I won't go into the whole flies w/honey, vinegar or DDT mantra, but there are jerks - and decent businessmen, anywhere you go. Settling claims is about pointing out to someone how much awful-er their life can be if they don't.* "MONEY" is the only language some people speak, unfortunately.

*(I may also be lucky to know some lawyers who can gin up the "Attila-the-Hun" lingo as needed and can speak a bit of spook-lawyerese myself.)

Like:

Figure out the judge in your area who hears these things, draw up a nice, really legally-looking spreadsheet kind of time-payment plan for the jerk, with the final total, ummm, 40%-60% more than what you want. Don't push it too hard. But zippy financial penalties & interest due in the event for late payments.

Your name, and a line bearing your signature
His name, and a blank line.....

"To be approved by Judge Luvsemsteihls upon claims resolution"

Even if there's essentially one claim, say claims. The general rule of thumb is, if your gob of paperwork is fatter than his gob of paperwork, you win. It sounds funny like that, but it'd really kinda sad, sick - and true. You're "going to" submit Carter schematics, you're going to submit "The Carter Story" off a website, you're going to submit the shearing coefficient of hard rock maple.... NO-body wants to read all that crap. WIN.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 Jun 2014 10:31 am

David, handling codes become nearly irrelevant at the hubs (ups and FXG both use hub and spoke systems: FXG has 28 north american hubs).
Bulky stuff and heavy stuff gets put on the carts. Even if carefully loaded onto the carts, I'm not gonna trust the carts.

This morning as I waited for them to load my trailers, I watched Cindy make a few runs. I estimate there were about 40 packages on each of the three trains I saw go. And a total of 8 packages hit the pavement.
For heavy/bulky items, that's a 6.67% chance of dropping 2-3 feet at 10 MPH or so, and landing on concrete or asphalt.
Since each package has the potential to ride carts FOUR times (local terminal near shipper, hub near shipper, hub near receiver, local terminal near receiver), that looks like a 26.66% chance of the big thud. Yeah, somebody will probably point out that adding chances doesn't work like that, but still...

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 5 Jun 2014 12:56 pm

With todays shipping...I'd be inclined to build a crate like a 'Crate Motor' comes in.

2nd to that, i think it's worth the time and money to drive across country and meet and greet, and take the anxiety out of the mix, especially when dealing with precious vintage items such as a fingertip.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 5 Jun 2014 3:04 pm

In my last steel purchase, I found a direct flight between the two cities with an airline that also has a cargo company sideline. This steel basically had to travel about 80 percent of the way across the continent.

Here was the process: from cargo bay to airplane. From airplane to cargo bay. Half a day between drop off and pickup. No damage. It would have had to go through about eight handling facilities by ground courier. It was less expensive than ground courier...not by much though.

I believe lane's statistics...you have to find the logistical option that minimizes the number of handling points, pack and sticker the box appropriately, and don't use commodity cargo for valuable antiques.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Jun 2014 3:12 am

I certainly agree that building a quality box or crate that can survive damage on the outside is reasonable and proper. BUT, if we do not secure the item on the INSIDE of said crate, case or box, damage can and will occur. If the carrier arrives at your door to inspect the package and it is not damaged( meaning the box) and the item inside is, well..now we have a lawyers duel...Remember how all this started, people were shipping broken items and blaming the carriers for the damage.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 17 Jun 2014 2:10 am

Hi John, can you give us an update on this!

John Brabant · Post by **John Brabant** » 17 Jun 2014 3:30 pm

Yes Tony, I am long overdue with an update, sorry everyone. So the UPS and their insurer, "Crawford & Company" has of course denied my claim. Their reason is the generic reason they deny every claim and their denial letter is generic, as I have found on the web identical versions of this letter's text. So, no surprise there.

This is the downside. The upside is that there is a clear pattern and practice to deny legitimate claims that I intend to include in my case presentation at small claims court. I have, fortunately, before and after pics of the guitar, case, packaging, etc. to prove that this was damaged in transit by UPS. Additionally, as I have said, Mark Giles has offered to build a new body for the guitar, but my understanding is that it may take upwards of 3 months to get built as Mark is backed up with work building bodies for a number of steel builders. I feel really bad about the prospect of Jack Goodson having to wait an additional 3 months plus the time to have it reassembled. Jack and I are exploring to see if we can find alternative approaches to resolving this situation that would see him with this guitar up and running on a shorter time frame. I have filed a complaint with the Vermont AG's Consumer Protection Unit. In time with this, I will be filing a complaint in the Vermont Small Claims Court. Nothing more to report at this juncture. If at all possible, when you purchase a steel, have it transported by Greyhound as has been suggested by a few Forumites.

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UPS disaster- Carter steel severely damaged - help

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