Ricky Davis' 3rd String

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Nov 2003 11:08 am

Ricky, I see that your Jagwire Artist Series strings have an .012 for the 3rd string on E9th. Do you really use an .012 on all of your guitars? The tension on that gauge scares me.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Larry Phleger · Post by **Larry Phleger** » 20 Nov 2003 1:17 pm

Jeff Newman uses a .012 for the third string. I started using it too, and find it cuts down on breakage.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 20 Nov 2003 1:24 pm

I know nothing of the physics of this. That makes it easier to make stuff up like this:

I have been using a 12 for 2 or 3 years now. Seems to me that the extra girth that requires greater tension to bring it to pitch also provides greater strength and endurance. Hence, it's a wash. I don't think I get extended life from the 12 vs. an 11 but I do get better sound.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 20 Nov 2003 2:03 pm

.012's are generally more forgiving on a 24" scale instrument like a Sho~Bud, than on a 24.25" instrument like an Emmons. I have used a .012 on an Emmons from time to time, though. But on a 25" guitar like a Sierra, I don't know about that.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 20 Nov 2003 2:07 pm

They sure hurt more when they let go!!!!

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 20 Nov 2003 2:20 pm

The scale length explanation Herb goes into above is what I got from Ricky; I was interested in trying his Jagwire set on my Mullen, which is 24.25"[This message was edited by Nathan Delacretaz on 20 November 2003 at 02:21 PM.]

Tony Rankin · Post by **Tony Rankin** » 20 Nov 2003 2:21 pm

I agree with what Jon Light said and with what Jim Palenscar said!!!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Nov 2003 2:23 pm

The .0115 seems plenty tight on my 25" Sierra. I don't think it could take a .012, but maybe I should give it a try.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 20 Nov 2003 2:27 pm

Let me add that this is on my 24" Carter. And to Jim P, you know what they say: No pain, no pain.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Nov 2003 2:38 pm

For a 0.011 string on a 24.5" scale ...
<pre>
The tension for a G# note is 28.7 lbs.
The tension for an A note is 32.3 lbs.
The breaking load is 36-40 lbs.
</pre>

For a 0.012 string on a 24.5" scale ...
<pre>
The tension for a G# note is 34.2 lbs.
The tension for an A note is 38.4 lbs.
The breaking load is 43-47 lbs.
</pre>

These values may vary slightly with different brands.

As Tarzan would say ...

Tension good ... Stiffness bad

The more taut a string ... the richer its harmonic content. A tension close to its breaking point will produce the greatest harmonic array.

But ...

As string stiffness increases ... so does the strings inharmonicity. The harmonics will be sharper than those of an ideal (theoretical) string.

The higher the Tension/Stiffness ratio ... the better the string performance.

Here is a handy Tension Calculator and a Breaking Load chart for fine tunin' your gauges.

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 November 2003 at 02:52 PM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 20 Nov 2003 3:44 pm

b0b,

I have been using a .012 3rd strings on the Crown D-10 and on the Session S-14, both 25" scale gearless, for over a year now and have not broken one, yet - or any other string for that matter. I change whole sets every 6-8 weeks, depending on how much action they see.

On the P/P the .012 lasted close to three weeks. I went back to a .011, which lasts about a week longer.

When I take the Sierras to a gig, I know nothing is going to break. Gigging the Emmons is a lot riskier.

Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '77 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Nov 2003 3:46 pm

I use 12's on my Sierra pretty often.
I think it sounds a little more tonally balanced with the other strings than an 11.
I recently bought a 10 pack of 11.5's.
They are O.K. too.
I'd say no biggie, really, whatever you choose.
Interestingly, I just changed back to a plain 20 from a wound 22 on string 6, and found my G# to G lower is set darn near perfectly for a G# to F# lower (my other 2 G#'s still lower to G on that pedal).
I had to reel in the G# to A at the endplate though.
I just got a big batch of 11's, so it'll be back to 11's for the next 24 high G# string changes or so.
Variety... Fun stuff!

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 20 Nov 2003 3:49 pm

I've used the stainless 12's for at least 12 years on every guitar I've had, Emmons p/p's
Sho-Buds, Emmons Legrande II, Derby, all of them. You can get 11.5's from George L.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 20 Nov 2003 4:48 pm

I understand that the plain strings in a stinless set are nickel and not stainless.

There was also an article in Guitar Player Magazine some time ago regarding the 'tolerance factor" in the string making process. All machined parts have a "plus & minus" tolerance. food for thought?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Nov 2003 5:43 pm

Rick, can you run those calculations for a 25" scale?

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 20 Nov 2003 6:56 pm

For a 0.011 string on a 25" scale ...
<pre>
The tension for a G# note is 29.9 lbs.
The tension for an A note is 33.6 lbs.
The breaking load is 36-40 lbs.
</pre>

For a 0.0115 string on a 25" scale ...
<pre>
The tension for a G# note is 32.7 lbs.
The tension for an A note is 36.7 lbs.
The breaking load is 39-43lbs.
</pre>

For a 0.012 string on a 25" scale ...
<pre>
The tension for a G# note is 35.6 lbs.
The tension for an A note is 40 lbs.
The breaking load is 43-47 lbs.
</pre>

Len, I believe most "plain strings" are tin plated, plain (carbon) steel ... regardless of brand.

The windings on wound strings are generally nickel or stainless over a tin plated, hex plain steel core.[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 20 November 2003 at 07:01 PM.]

jay thompson · Post by **jay thompson** » 20 Nov 2003 7:05 pm

I have used .012's for 28+ years. The first time was a new 1976 Sho-Bud Pro II Custom which came with an .012, 3rd string on it. Since that time I have continued to use the .012 on my Emmons LeGrande and LeGrande II. The response has more body which tends to level out the response across the strings.
I believe that Franklin guitars come with .012's.

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 20 Nov 2003 7:55 pm

I had to stop using a .012 for the 3rd string when my Doctor told me to start taking an asprin daily.

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 20 Nov 2003 8:37 pm

Leon, I read you loud and clear. Nothing but .011's for me. However, I believe any thing Ricky Davis says!
Jerry

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 20 Nov 2003 11:15 pm

Sorry b0b and guys; I was at my Hawaiian Gig.
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Well as Herb eluded to and Nate followed up....is correct. My string sets are designed for the perfect 24" scale pedal steel...which I feel are the perfect guages(after many many many guage tests) for the less distance between bridge and nut; that will give you the best sustain and most even octive pulls and Harmonics.
Granted; folks ARE putting .012 on a 24 1/4" scale; but I won't do it....mainly cause it scares the heck outta me(got bit hard by that dog once..ha).
But I wouldn't be afraid to put a Jagwire .012 on a 24 1/4" scale.....they seem to take less tension to pull to pitch...
Hey Rick A....that just gave me an idea with your tension chart...??
Is there any way to measure the tension and breaking load between a brand or two..same guage??
Say on a 24.25 scale....>what is the tension and break load of a Jagwire brand .011 > and the tension of say ANY other brand??
I'd be interested in seeing that??
It may not be nothing..but I believe deep down...; that it takes less tension to pull a Jagwire to G# and A , than other brands.
So in conclusion..ha...

I prefer a .012 for the G# to A 3rd string, on a perfect 24" scale...and a .011 for the longer scale...
Ricky

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Nov 2003 1:36 am

I have been using Ricky's Jagwire sets on my Bud and am very happy with them.
I have some Russ Hicks sets with 11.5's and they seem good too.

Rick A. great info!

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 21 Nov 2003 4:28 am

Ricky,

That calculator is based on a particular brand and the info provided. You could get the exact "specs" for each string and do the math ... or

Just rig up a simple device that would experimentally determine what you are after.

Fix a string to a board at one end ... attach a "loading tray" to the other end (distance between = scale length).

By adding standardized weights (available via scientic supply sources like Fisher, Sargent Welch) and an electronic tuner ... you could detemine the tension at a particular pitch and then the breaking load.

You would need to do many "runs" and take the averages ... to cut down on experimental error.

We used to do similar "experiments" in my classes ... they were good problem solving, design oriented labs ... and each year some of the brighter students really suprised me with their approaches.

Maybe it could be a project for your steel students ... best outcome gets a few free lessons

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Nov 2003 4:41 am

Also shouldn't the jig clamp onto the straight string rather than have a bend? Then it would be a true test of the string, not a weakened section at the bend.

Alternatvly, would be to have it pass on top like a steel roller without to much angle, and the bottom be attached around an actual changer finger to get the actual angle in use breaking points.

Just a suggestion that came to mind.

Oh yeah and wear saftey goggles!

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 November 2003 at 04:42 AM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 21 Nov 2003 4:59 am

some of the brighter students really suprised me with their approaches.

See what I mean ... and safety conscious too.

Lawrence Lupkin · Post by **Lawrence Lupkin** » 21 Nov 2003 6:15 am

What happens if it gets bent?