One guitar better than other

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Mar 2014 5:07 am

Malcolm McMaster wrote:What Richard said.For some reason some players seem to look down their nose at Carters (pro models) but I really don't know why.

Malcolm, truth be told, some players (snobs?) look down on anything but the brand they like.

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 30 Mar 2014 6:05 am

Words of wisdom there Donny.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 30 Mar 2014 7:59 am

Malcolm McMaster wrote:What Richard said.For some reason some players seem to look down their nose at Carters (pro models) .

That's just plain dumb. Carters are excellent instruments. The only thing wrong with them is that they are no longer being made. The resistance to them falls under the category of "I'm against it. What is it?"

John Fabian came up with a new way of manufacturing his guitars, and the reaction by some is the same as that of the people whom told Columbus that the world is flat, and the Wright Brothers that their machine would never fly.He built fine guitars, and he built them quickly, with minimum wait time for delivery.

I considered buying one myself. I eventually chose to stay with MSA primarily out of personal loyalty to Reece.

Some years back, Big Jim Baron hosted an event in Sacramento that featured Jeff Newman, Bobby Black, Jay Dee Maness, and David Wright. Jay Dee played his Emmons P-P of course, David was still plying a Sierra at the time. Bobby Black and Jeff Newman both played Carters. Jeff also played a Zum, for half the show.

The Carter's sounded just fine, although different from the Emmons and Sierra. We (the audience) had a chance to compare the sound of Jeff's Carter with his Zum. The Zum had a tad more growl in the bass, but the difference was negligible.

David Wren (another world class player who deserves our attention) played a Carter and sounds awesome.

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 30 Mar 2014 8:29 am

Might be dumb Mike , but true I'm afraid , I know of several players this side of pond who regard them as inferior to other makes, just because they say they "were massed produced" . How wrong can these guys be,every Carter I have heard sounded great, the players are a different matter.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 30 Mar 2014 8:58 am

Again, they were not mass produced. He just had he machine shop he used make a good supply so he had the parts on hand at all times.

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 30 Mar 2014 9:14 am

...agreed Richard, they were made one piece at the time just like the rest are. John just kept a large inventory of parts so that he had everything he needed for every order that came in. Big difference in that and having robots doing work.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV.

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 30 Mar 2014 1:17 pm

Richard, just to make it clear, I personally know Carters were not factoryline mass produced, I actually said that others this side of the pond (and a few on your side ) believed that to be true, and I always take the opportunity to clear up their misguided idea.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 30 Mar 2014 7:09 pm

I didn't like the carter starter,but it sure got me playing ! No comparison between the starter and the Carter pro models. John built a good guitar. I think that it's more important to get the right amp. You need an amp with high headroom so it doesn't distort. I ended up getting a good deal on a Nashville 400 (wish I wouldn't have sold it), and that helped a lot with what I thought steel should sound like.

Bill Davison · Post by **Bill Davison** » 31 Mar 2014 9:39 am

What is the differance between the Carter Starter and the Pro? In other words, what makes the Pro so much better? This goes back to my original question in this post. (What makes one PSG better than another)?

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 31 Mar 2014 9:44 am

Bill Davison wrote:What is the differance between the Carter Starter and the Pro? In other words, what makes the Pro so much better? This goes back to my original question in this post.

You can change the copedent on the Pro. You cannot on the Starter.

The knee levers on the Starter are ... funky ( not in a good way) . Cheezy.

Other than that...

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 1 Apr 2014 9:56 pm

Bill, the difference between a Carter Starter and a Carter pro model is the pro-model has everything you'd ever want in a steel-guitar whereas the Starter has quite a few things you wouldn't want in a steel-guitar.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 1 Apr 2014 10:37 pm

The carter starter was designed to get you learning at an affordable price (under a grand),on a guitar with a modern copedant. John Fabian really wanted to standardize copedants too. He theorized that if we had a standardized copedant and we could standardize instructional material,we could further the instrument. He was a real visionary when it came to marketing the PSG. So this was a fixed,modern copedant guitar that was built with Jeff Newmans instructional material in mind. Just like your first guitar,after you learned some songs, you immediately wanted a cool strat ! John wanted the student to want to get the cool steel guitar too,and he had immediate brand loyalty because you started with his product. Pure genious ! I'd say John forced all the other companies to up the ante with their entry level offerings.

Fraser Moffatt · Post by **Fraser Moffatt** » 2 Apr 2014 8:30 pm

This discussion reminds me of the "quest for tone" that I, and arguably, many other players have pursued over the course of their playing careers. When I started playing six string electric guitar in 1980, I thought my Aria Pro II through a Traynor Bloc 100GT was a killer setup. I guess we all are in a continual state of maturation when it comes to tone. Then I got a Tele, and a Tube Screamer, then a Fender tube amp...and so it goes. I got the sickness even worse since I have played bass guitar for the last 30 years or so. That's a whole other set of parameters for "tone".

Be it a Tele though a tweed Deluxe, a Strat or Les Paul though a Marshall, a P-bass through an Ampeg or a Sho-Bud though a Peavey, the goal is the same and is just as ephemeral.

Tone is subjective - the tone that we have in our heads is what drives us to try different guitars, amps, effects time and time again in pursuit of that tone. Many argue that "tone is in the hands" and I don't entirely disagree. My experience has been - whether you are an accomplished player or a beginner, you probably aren't going to get what you are looking for from a cheap instrument through a cheap amp. Your mileage might vary, of course. I'm sure Clapton could make a Squire Strat though a solid state Kustom with an 8" speaker sound "good"...but probably not as "good" as his signature Strat through a Bluesbreaker.

All I can say is don't stop until you find the tone you are looking for. It might not be the same tone that your favourite artist gets from his or her setup - although thats a good start.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 3 Apr 2014 2:11 am

Fraser Moffatt wrote:This discussion reminds me of the "quest for tone" that I, and arguably, many other players have pursued over the course of their playing careers. When I started playing six string electric guitar in 1980, I thought my Aria Pro II through a Traynor Bloc 100GT was a killer setup. I guess we all are in a continual state of maturation when it comes to tone. Then I got a Tele, and a Tube Screamer, then a Fender tube amp...and so it goes. I got the sickness even worse since I have played bass guitar for the last 30 years or so. That's a whole other set of parameters for "tone".

Be it a Tele though a tweed Deluxe, a Strat or Les Paul though a Marshall, a P-bass through an Ampeg or a Sho-Bud though a Peavey, the goal is the same and is just as ephemeral.

Tone is subjective - the tone that we have in our heads is what drives us to try different guitars, amps, effects time and time again in pursuit of that tone. Many argue that "tone is in the hands" and I don't entirely disagree. My experience has been - whether you are an accomplished player or a beginner, you probably aren't going to get what you are looking for from a cheap instrument through a cheap amp. Your mileage might vary, of course. I'm sure Clapton could make a Squire Strat though a solid state Kustom with an 8" speaker sound "good"...but probably not as "good" as his signature Strat through a Bluesbreaker.

All I can say is don't stop until you find the tone you are looking for. It might not be the same tone that your favourite artist gets from his or her setup - although thats a good start.

It's not the tone of the carter starter that blows, it's the knee levers that blow! They are made of aluminum angle and they are a little flimsy and the "action" on them is just funky ! I owned several Aria guitars in the 80's......that was a well built instrument,especially if you could get one with a Kahler tremelo with roller saddles!

Bill Davison · Post by **Bill Davison** » 3 Apr 2014 9:08 am

Fraser, How does your PSG sound thru your Peavey NV 112? I think that's the amp that I'm going for.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 3 Apr 2014 12:36 pm

For those that want to hear what a Carter sounds like, check out the 2nd song and the song about 2:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8uqdnd4osY

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Apr 2014 2:15 pm

Malcolm McMaster wrote:Might be dumb Mike , but true I'm afraid , I know of several players this side of pond who regard them as inferior to other makes, just because they say they "were massed produced" .

Funny...you almost never hear the top-of-the-line players bitchin' and complainin' about their tone. But among those who don't play that great, it seems to be the number-one topic!

Bill Davison · Post by **Bill Davison** » 3 Apr 2014 3:55 pm

That's because I want to sound like the top-of-the-line players and I don't.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Apr 2014 3:52 pm

I know the feeling, Bill, it's a big quandry for many of us. But when you look at it objectively, the answer is pretty clear. Many of the classic idols, the really "big name players" down through the years used different amps and different guitars, but they almost always sounded great! That tells me that you don't need a certain amp or guitar to get a great sound. The NV112 is a fine little amp, and it will give you a good sound. The Carter steel will give you a good sound, too. Of course, if someone doesn't know how to set the amp, and doesn't how to play well, they're just not going to get into pro sound territory. It takes a lotta years to learn how to craft a good sound...and players shouldn't just go out and endlessly buy stuff until they've accumulated the experience to get the most out of what they have. Players will sometimes ask me..."Shouldn't I just start out with the best? Won't that make me a better player, or make me learn faster?" My answer is always "No, not really...it just doesn't work that way." $:\$

"Good enough" is good enough. At least, until you get very, very good.

Daniel Policarpo · Post by **Daniel Policarpo** » 4 Apr 2014 7:41 pm

Steve Lipsey wrote:Try the Deluxe - that actually is an amp used by many players for small club gigs. It will complement the steel perfectly. And it is tubes, a warmer sound than the Acoustonic

I've been using amplification that I had "leftover" from my six string days, a hodge podge of amps that got really great unique sounds out of Teles, Les Pauls, etc. It's been ok for practice. But this week I finally tried a Deluxe Reverb and that was a great sound! actually very much the aural sound I've been trying to get the last few months, somewhere near Tom Brumley and Sonny Curtis-land circa 1967. It was right there in that re-issue Fender amp behind a Stage One ZumSteel. Now all I need to keep working is that technique. Can't buy that.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 4 Apr 2014 8:33 pm

I actually prefer my Milkman Pedal Steel Mini - sort of a Deluxe on steroids - 40 watts gives just enough extra to work just about anywhere, and of course the Milkman EQ is great...but it is the Deluxe vibe (twin 6L6), and the Deluxe itself is great, especially if you already have one!

Fraser Moffatt · Post by **Fraser Moffatt** » 5 Apr 2014 1:11 pm

Bill Davison wrote:Fraser, How does your PSG sound thru your Peavey NV 112? I think that's the amp that I'm going for.

Bill - I'm pretty happy with it. Sounds MUCH better than though either of my 1964 Gibson Falcons (noisy) or through my bass amps (not much "life"). Wish I hadn't let go of my Deluxe Reverb, that would have been sweet. But I'm pretty happy with the clean, lush tone I get with the Peavey.

However - and this is the rub - I think I might want to change the pickup in the BMI!

Ah, some things never change.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 5 Apr 2014 2:06 pm

Steve Lipsey wrote:I actually prefer my Milkman Pedal Steel Mini - sort of a Deluxe on steroids - 40 watts gives just enough extra to work just about anywhere, and of course the Milkman EQ is great...but it is the Deluxe vibe (twin 6L6), and the Deluxe itself is great, especially if you already have one!

A Fender Deluxe Reverb is 2x6V6 run class AB for 22 watts.

I find a Fender Blues Deluxe makes a fine steel amp @ 40 watts. It is 2x6L6. Good Telecaster and Les Paul amp, too.

Bill Davison · Post by **Bill Davison** » 14 May 2014 2:18 pm

Wow! I just read an article by Jeff Newman regarding this subject. He really breaks it down to very simple terms. Here's the link.
http://www.jeffran.com/articles.php?content=tone

I do have to say, even after reading the article, that I just got a Peavey Nashville 112, and it really made a difference in the sound that comes out of my Carter.

Jim Williams · Post by **Jim Williams** » 14 May 2014 4:54 pm

"Funky" is probably the nicest comment I've ever heard about the Knee levers on a Starter.

Sad thing is they could have spent another $50 or so and the Starter would have been a lot better guitar and still been affordable.