Intro Improv

Tom Stolaski · Post by **Tom Stolaski** » 4 Nov 2003 5:46 pm

After reading some of the Lick posts lately I was wondering how many Steel Guitarists play stock intros, and how many improvise? I am one of those guys that did not take the time to learn stock intros. Every time I do a kick-off, I know where it should start and where it should end. I really don't know how it is going turn out until I am done, which is more exciting and a lot more fun..........[This message was edited by Tom Stolaski on 04 November 2003 at 05:47 PM.]

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 4 Nov 2003 8:07 pm

I'm with you if it's on a gig where I can get away with it. It's either
1511
5511
or 4511
the exceptions are where there are split bars
like
1/4 1/5 1/4 1
it's all numbers to me.
[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 04 November 2003 at 08:08 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Nov 2003 7:17 am

If I play, e.g., 'Touch My Heart' or 'The Other Woman', I tend to go with something close to what E played. Classic tunes often included a steel part as an integral piece of the song. I don't usually learn the entire solo, but, for me, the 'Night Life' solo from the original Price version is one exception.

Most anything else, including tunes I don't know the signature licks for, instrumentals, original tunes, etc., I play whatever I think is appropriate. Can't remember ever hearing a complaint about what I played for an intro, turn, solo, or break tune so I must be doing something right.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 5 Nov 2003 7:31 am

A lot depends on the singer or the band leader. Some will insist the steel player play the exact thing as on the recording. Others are more generous. I knew of a local singer once who that if every band member did not do it just like on the "star's" recording, they found themselves looking for another job.

I will share the following with you. One night many years ago on the Friday nite opry broadcast at the National Life and Accident insurance company, a well known star told the steel player during rehearsal, "I would like for you to kick it off just like "Lloyd Green" did it".

The steel player looked at him and in affect told the singer he was NOT that player; and if "if you want that, get him?"

I purposely did not tell you who the steel player was that said that to the singer, but I will tell you he is one of the all time greats and has appeared at the ISGC for as long as I can remember. No, It was NOT Buddy Emmons!

carl

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 5 Nov 2003 8:15 am

kicking off a song is kind of like reading the preface to a book; If the preface grabs you, you'll probably continue. If not....
Used to be, on the radio you could tell who was going to be singing just by hearing the intro. Players on the session strove to compliment the singer & the lyrics.
All of that is based around the melody &/or chord structure of the song. Now, thats not to say that the intro needs to be a mimic of the tag line, etc; but one needs to consider the whole song & pick out something that sets up the next 2&1/2 mins or so when playing an intro. Look at "I'll Come Running', "Touch My Heart', "Ones On The Way', etc. No actual melody playing on those, but the listener got the idea right away. If you know the melody & chord structure of a song you can improvise from there on the theme & if its good to you, try it for at least part of the turnaround & maybe hint at it on the outro, if there is one.
Signature licks are just that; the twin lick on most ET songs; the little walk-ups at the end of an intro or t/a on many Jean Sheperd tunes, etc. Those arent necessarily things that can comprise an intro, but they embellish it & lend continuity to a song & identity to the artist.....jmho

mc

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 5 Nov 2003 8:19 am

A lot depends on the singer or the band leader. Some will insist the steel player play the exact thing as on the recording. Others are more generous. I knew of a local singer once who that if every band member did not do it just like on the "star's" recording, they found themselves looking for another job.

Carl,I was asked to reherse with an "egotripper" He wanted the song exatly like the record,I kicked it as close as possiable,he started singing and I stopped playing and told him he didn't sound anything like Ray Price.Can you believe he made me pack my guitar up and leave

Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 5 Nov 2003 8:27 am

So "turn around" is NOT fair game huh

carl

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 5 Nov 2003 8:42 am

Ray> ya know... I need to remember that... only 2 more gigs with my old band (and the perfectionist keyboard player/lead "singer")... this guy would preach and whine and throw fits if any of us showed any creativity at all, did any improvisation etc, and would complain if ANYTIHNG was not note for note just like the record.... he is the first one to throw a tuner toward whomever he felt like picking on if ANYTHIGN didnt sound right (if I would hit a wrong chord, he'd throw the tuner to the bass player etc).. HOWEVER, his singing was mostly off key, and when he'd pick up the fiddle... well all cats ina 5 mile radius would RUN for cover.... I should remember that... next time he says 'that's not like the record... gee, neither is your fiddle playing/singing!" ok this was off topic, so to keep the post legal...

--- in my old band, I'd ahve to do the intro's note for note exactly, and I agree, some NEED to be correct ("Look At Us" -- when you hear those fist few notes, you KNOW the song!)... however there are tunes that you can improvise a bit on, have fun with... however, I believe that 'signature' licks, intros,etc need to be in place, but most other rides are a great place to be yourself etc.. just my opinion, and ya know what they say about opinions...

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 5 Nov 2003 8:56 am

Mike said it well.

If the song has an intro that people identify with it, I believe I should play it close enough to the original that they'll recognise it.

Two examples that come to mind, from my current band, are "Big City" and "You Ain't Going Nowhere".

Can you imagine "Folsom Prison" being started without the signature guitar lick? It just wouldn't be right.

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 5 Nov 2003 9:19 am

Many years ago I was playing a local night club in Louisville when a somewhat-famous singer (who shall remain unnamed) walked in. Of course, our bandleader asked him to sing a couple. He stepped up on stage, called out the name of one of his recorded songs, looked at me and said, "Kick it off and play the steel part just like the record." I'm sorry fellows, but I simply couldn't resist; I said, "I'm sorry sir but I don't believe I have ever heard your record." Then I tried my best not to sound like the recorded steel. (The Devil made me do it!)

Ray Jenkins · Post by **Ray Jenkins** » 5 Nov 2003 9:41 am

So thats where you got the nickname "Rotten Roy"

Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 5 Nov 2003 10:32 am

These days I´m so glad to have a chance to play some tunes with steel intro AT ALL... in my last band we had a set list of about 50 tunes and not even one steel intro... what a SHAME! But now I do some and they are usually classics like "Rainy Day Woman" - I feel I just have to kick that one off the same way Mooney did it, that makes me feel "right at home".

Regards, Joe H.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 5 Nov 2003 1:33 pm

I think that playing signature licks on the intro, or the tag at the end of a tune, is what really keeps the mental juices musically flowing. Especially, if you get to play a bar or two, in the middle of the song. Sometimes it can be a challenge to copy a lick, note for note, but, even if I can get close, I'm happy. A lot of intros and "outros", are what can make a mediocre tune really a joy to play.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 5 Nov 2003 3:55 pm

I've been thinking about these lick posts, and in my case (perhaps similar for you, Tom), it's been partially a matter of exposure. Many of the guys on this forum learned on and played many gigs where the sets were classic tunes with the licks and turns we've been talking about. Most of my playing has been with largely original music, new artists who didn't want their records copied exactly, cover tunes that had no original steel parts, etc. So my "training" was more in improvising parts and working from ear and intuition (what Tom said). Along the way I've learned some of the classic steel licks, but when years go by without playing 'em, they're just not in my cache file anymore. There is a real pride and depth of musicality in revisiting the "licks of the masters", and I agree that quite a few turns truly deserve the intros and sometimes solos (Blue Bayou!) that people know as well as the lyrics. But there's also no better feeling, to me, than being in a band where every bit of the music is spontaneously created in the moment, and you fly or crash by the seat of your pants. Now where did I put that pesky "ricochette" lick?

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 6 Nov 2003 2:47 am

Tom said:
" I do a kick-off, I know where it should start and where it should end. I really don't know how it is going turn out until I am done, which is more exciting and a lot more fun.........."

When you get to a certain point in being able to play, you find (well, I find) that I'm not quite in control. *I* am not playing but *it* is playing-- the music flows through.
It happened a lot with banjo. I'd get up to take a break, do it, back away from the mike, the singer would start again, and I was left wondering if I *really* did take a break. No memory.
The first time it happened on steel, I was elated.
It helps, of course, as Mark said, if you are playing in a situation where there IS no standard lick, because it is all original stuff and much of it happening right there and then.
Just love it at those times!

JW

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 6 Nov 2003 9:04 am

Mark, I can really identify with what you said about learning "all" the classic intro's and breaks as I too came from a "non-standard" selection of music when I first started playing. Yes, I do know some of them because I wanted to learn what positions and KL/Ped combinations the player used to get "those" sounds, but I doubt if I ever got much of a chance to use them and like you, 15 or 20 years later I doubt if I could still play the "lick" that I tore apart to learn what it was made from, but I still have the knowledge that it gave me to this day.
Winnie, I approach it like a "stunt-driver" in an auto show sometimes. If I don't get it up on two wheels and lay some rubber, it's not as much fun!
On Jay Dee's website in the interview, he makes a comment about his and Lloyd's playing on "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" that really sums it up best for me. I think it go's something like this; "Lloyd know's exactly what he wants to play before he even starts and I just go at it like a blind dog in a meathouse".
JE:-)>

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 6 Nov 2003 4:01 pm

We tried as a band to make every song sound as close to the record as we could. I think that's what people want to hear.

And every request that one of us new a verse of we did and made up the rest as we went along. Sure did help to bring those tips in.

Bob

Jim Eller · Post by **Jim Eller** » 6 Nov 2003 4:37 pm

Maybe someone could start "My Favorite Generic Intro" in the Tab section of The Forum.

I could sure use the help.

Jim in MI

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 8 Nov 2003 8:06 pm

Can't resist saying this again. Mine is the intro on Coways "Fifteen Years Ago". But when I do it, it don't sound neeaar as purty as when Hughey does it.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlson on 08 November 2003 at 08:07 PM.]