That "SOUND" is gone forever !!

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 13 Dec 2013 2:52 am

Billy Hew Len with some old-timey solid state (Roland Cube) sounds: http://youtu.be/6IrSq1rOoL4

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 13 Dec 2013 10:31 am

Ray Montee wrote:...So soon we can forget...when I found it took so long for the tubes to come to power...

That's something that they forget in movies all the time. How many times have you seen a recent movie set in the thirties where they turn on the radio and the sound comes straight out?
One of my distinct memories of being brought up in the immediate post-WW2 era was of my father and grandfather being very interested in the football results, and having to turn on the radio at least five minutes ahead of the sports report or they would miss the results. Of course, their reason was that they had money on the football "pools" and had visions of winning the jackpot.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 13 Dec 2013 11:29 am

Alan Brookes wrote:Of course, their reason was that they had money on the football "pools" and had visions of winning the jackpot.

And now finding those old tubes is like the jackpot!

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 13 Dec 2013 11:44 am

Wayne Carver wrote:Could one search "harp amp" and maybe find something good for lap steel?

I believe that's a valid conclusion. The old smaller sized tube amps that were marketed to beginning steel guitarists in the early postwar era make for excellent harp amps.

Two modern amps that sound great for harp are the Crate 508 and the Fender Pro Junior, especially when substituting a 12AY7 for the 12AX7 preamp tube. They also sound great with with my B-6 Rick, although it'll sound good through anything.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 13 Dec 2013 11:47 am

I prefer to use solid state amps these days for playing, and I've always gotten a good tone from them, but the main reason is the extended clean headroom. I like a little bit of growl or gain at times, but sometimes with tubes it's a real struggle to keep it clean.

I always prefer tube amps for recording, though.

A lot it depends on the guitar and the player.

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 13 Dec 2013 12:19 pm

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for putting up the link to Billy Hew Len. That is a great video! Right up front and one can see how he weaved his magic. He would sound good through any amp.

All the best and good to see you on the Forum.

Roy

Michael Laslovich · Post by **Michael Laslovich** » 13 Dec 2013 8:01 pm

So many of the amps have combination tube and solid state with effects. I'm really thrilled to know how many effects you can just download on-line or are all ready installed in these new amps. WITH ALL OF THE OPTIONS THESE DAYS YOU CAN COPY JUST ABOUT ANY SOUND YOU WANT.

BUT EDDIE I'M WITH YOU. I know what its like breaking your guitar from the case and plugging into the amp and just playing ,,,,those were the days. Folks were just thrilled that you were electric and had the sound the Jive....

Wayne Carver · Post by **Wayne Carver** » 13 Dec 2013 8:13 pm

Jeff Au Hoy wrote:Billy Hew Len with some old-timey solid state (Roland Cube) sounds: http://youtu.be/6IrSq1rOoL4

He is amazing and inspirational.

Wayne Carver · Post by **Wayne Carver** » 13 Dec 2013 8:15 pm

This guy appears to have the Don Helms sound authenticated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thR-u1ua4rA

After watching his hands, I think he is just adding a little to Don's playing but this is a good example of the sound I like.

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 15 Dec 2013 2:03 am

Aloha Eddie C,

Read your post here and decided to try a recording using modern recording equipment (except for my Frypan)to see if one could still get that old sound that you yearned for.

Here's a quick and short slap together medley that I put together called "Song Of The Islands & Aloha Tears".

Using the good ol' Roland Micro Cube for the steel.

http://soundcloud.com/derrickmau/sound- ... ands-aloha

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 15 Dec 2013 11:26 am

Nice playing...........

Enjoyed both tunes immensely.

Thanks for sharing.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 15 Dec 2013 11:33 am

Thanks for posting that, Derrick. I enjoyed it. If you hadn't said ahead what you had used as the amplifier I wouldn't have been able to identify it.

I wonder if you recorded the same number using different amplifiers, then posted them and asked members which were which, how many of us would correctly identify the amps, even if they were a mixture of tube and transistor amps.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 15 Dec 2013 11:47 am

Hey Alan:

I did that very thing last summer and while I could detect large differences in the room where it was being recorded, I COULD NOT identify which amp was which after recording them.

What does that tell us?

Is it really in the hands and/or equipment........or is it really in the EAR?

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 15 Dec 2013 1:10 pm

I think you've hit the nail on the head, Ray. Your old Rickenbacker D8, which you were kind enough to sell to me a few years ago, has a sealed back, which means that there's a built-in sounding cavity. Because of that it's quite loud even before amplification, and it's that difference (apart from the fact that it still has some Skipper talent ingrained in it ) that makes it sound so different from a Stringmaster or a frying pan.
Maybe the warm tone that we associate with tube amps has become ingrained into our subconscious, so that nowadays we hear what we want to hear.
The one thing that I don't miss about tube amps is the low frequency buzz that they emit, and their tendency to crackle.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 15 Dec 2013 1:17 pm

I haven't noticed either of those things you mention.

I know that one night all of us in the band went nuts trying to get rid of unwanted noise and later determined it was the dimmer switches throughout the lodge. Whew!

Glad you're enjoying the Ric....... It was a pretty guitar and matched the single neck JB model I have....exactly. It was nice model to retain but it was a long scale and I found the slants to be a little more than I cared to work with.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and yours.

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 15 Dec 2013 1:59 pm

Hi Alan,

I don't think people would be able to tell the difference. If you go back to my other two recordings on this Forum (My Rose of Waikiki & Manuela Boy) and compare with this latest posting, the tone is completely different; but I'm using the same Roland Micro Cube amp dialed in to the same setting, but a different mic and preamp.

The same difference in results could be had using a tube amp. Just a simple change in one or two audio gear can change the tone drastically.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 15 Dec 2013 4:22 pm

...so the answer to the question, "Has that sound gone for ever?" is "No, but you have to play around with the amp settings, mike positions, etc., until you get what you're looking for."

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 16 Dec 2013 5:09 am

My first post on page one ... Was my 'usual' tongue in check style comment ... Except that Luigi does have "mad soldering skills" ...

But to be serious for a moment ... Like the majority of folks here ... I am always looking for the sound that "moves me" ... Whether it's listening to others ( like Derrick, Jeff, JB, Iona, Ho'opi'i, McIntire, Bernice Honold, etc, etc) ... or in my own playing.

Some players really get to me ... Paul Kim as an example ... And others just don't " float my boat" ... even though other folks idolize them ...

I guess what I like to listen to is very personal ... I like what I like ... $:\$

Same for guitars ... I like most steel guitars ... But until I decided to make my own ... I didn't really appreciate the subtle aspects that make a great steel "great" vs a good steel "good"...

And I continue to think, experiment and prototype ...

Pickups too ... Started with making Horseshoes for Jason L. ... Then to working with him on a Fender Trap repro. ... Finally To working on my own designs and builds ...

Amps though ... I kinda steered away from them ... Figured that there was enough diversity out there ... That I could " buy" my way into a great amp ... I did buy some beauties ... 70's Twin, Neer's Wooden Epiphone, an authentic Ricky "Lunchbox", Pro Junior, 5 Watt Epi Juniors ... Did the tube rolling thing too ... NOS, etc ( try explaining a $85 glass tube to your honey) ...

Also bought all the new modeler amps ... Micro Cube, Mobile Cube, Vox DA5, Micro Cube GX, lastly the Yamaha THR10 ...

Tubes sounded good, but could get noisey ( and I hate hum, buzz, crackles) ... Modelers sounded good, but each new one seemed better than the last ... Till I started the rotation of them again, and then I liked the first one again, etc, etc, etc

I even have a couple of the big Peavey SS amps ( Nashville 400, Jazz Classic) ...

Then I heard Gerald Ross say something about a " Boutique Amp" he played through at some festival ... That really changed his mind about these very expensive tubers.

Thinking my wife would surely give me the boot ... If I even asked to buy these $$$ 5 watt amps ...I decided to learn about amps ( like I did with sand casting and pickups) ... There is a lot to them and some of it was very frightening. ...

But I used my typical obsessive methodology ... Learned all about single ended vs push- pull output tube configurations ... Class A vs Class AB vs Class B, etc ... All kinds of $hit ... Basically learned the RCA tube manual

I will say ... That after understanding these machines ... And trial & error building for months and months .... Concentrating on the sound I like and the noise I hate ...

I now have an amp that "moves me" ...

Makes me want to plug in all the time ... That works with my cast steels & NIB based pickups in what can only be described as a single unit ... All 3 ( guitar, pickup and amp) as a single entity ...

I'm finally happy with equipment ... Just wish I could play like Paul K., etc ... But I've settled into my little niche of songs that don't go over 90 bpm ... And now enjoy building stuff and helping my buddies fix their treasures ...

Sorry for the long post ... I'm sick as a dog ... Watched my Redskins implode again ... And am watching SpongeBob for the 10,000 x ...

... So I thought I'd share some of my thoughts about this ... "that sound" thang ...

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 16 Dec 2013 6:34 am

Rick, it's been fascinating following your journey over the last 10 years. You're the Edison or Tesla of the lap steel world. Ya know, when we listen to the tone on old records, I think we sometimes forget what we are hearing is really not one thing. It's a helix of many aspects all intertwined such as ...

The guitar
The amp
The room
The mic's used and the mic placement
The tube pre-amps the engineer's used
The player's technique
The mastering process used
The output device on which we are listening today
The mindset of the player on the day the recording was done. Whom did they listen to and enjoy? How much say did they have over the sound of the recording and how much did the engineer and his/her equipment color the sound of the recording?
Our mindset as listeners today who have the entire history of recorded sound available to us at the touch of a button. How does it color our perceptions of old recordings having heard Coltrane, Vaughn, Santana, Clapton, The Beach Boys, Adele, etc. in addition to McIntire, Byrd and Benny Goodman?

I don't have the answers but the questions are interesting.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 16 Dec 2013 9:35 am

That's a good list, Andy. All of those things, and probably more, contribute to the overall sound we hear.

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 16 Dec 2013 11:41 am

Nicely said Andy,

The mindset of the old time audio engineers and musicians definately differ from those of today as to how tone should sound.

Today's musician's and audio engineers like to use a lot of reverb and FX in their "live" and recorded performances.

I guess all things evolve.
Wonder if the vintage type of tone will be sought after in the years to come?

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 16 Dec 2013 1:34 pm

All said, the personal dream sound we might acquire will mostly only be of benefit to ourselves (players and tone lovers) so we play better, or at least get into it more, while the average Joe couldn't care less or know good from bad.

Sebastian Müller · Post by **Sebastian Müller** » 21 Dec 2013 1:55 am

Sorry for joining this thread so late, I was watching it for quite a while with big interest but I couldn't contribute because I wasn't able to log in due to a technical forum problem.
So, I absolutely love the old steelguitar sound of Sol Hoopii, Dick McIntire and a lot
of other players of that era. Good examples of that sound (in my opinion) would be:

Hoopii:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb0A2RLE32U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJcjBbQeNmc

Tutmarc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl5mwJIcpuo

Of course the guitar plays a certain role as do the players but I'm sure that the overdriven little tube amps are a very prominent part of that sound. And, as Mike Neer mentioned, the non permanent magnet speaker designs of some amps of that era as well.
I visited one guy in germany who is a bluesharp-player and amp collector, he has a massive collection of amps from the 40s till the 60s, these amps sound very different to the 'newer' style amps like Fenders, etc.
It's actually 'the sound' we know from that old recordings (playing a Rickenbacher of course also helps)
It's funny, when I played guitar I always thought Tweet Fenders are as vintage as it get's : ).

I am a sound engineer and it is true that a part of the sound we hear is influenced by the recording and foremost playbacktechnique of that time, the reduced frequency spectrum of 78s is not because the old microphones had such a narrow frequency range, it's foremost the medium that lacks that range. I think the recordingpath is more important for the sound of acoustic Tricone recordings than for electric steel recordings, I have the feeling that the sound we hear on the electric recordings
is pretty much the sound of that amp in the recording room, maybe with a bit less highs and some additional distortion.

Rick, I am excited to hear about your amp project, how many watts will the amp have, what kind of tubes do you use?
Happy Holidays to you all!

Sebastian

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 21 Dec 2013 5:58 am

It's about 4 watts ... A 5Y3 rectifier tube, a 12ay7 preamp tube and a 6V6 power tube ... Single ended, Class A ...

I used an AA764 schematic as a basic guide ... Since I had a Champ chassis and cabinet from an amp that didn't fare well during Hurricane Andrew in Miami ...

Most of the time consuming "tweaks" centered around taming the B+ to make it more compatible with modern house voltage ... Selecting the cathode bypass capacitors ... Developing a tone stack to compliment my pickup ... And coming up with a grounding scheme to separate the sensitive components from the power components ...

I then selected an Eminence 820H (4 ohm hemp cone) speaker ...

I took it to Joliet for folks to try ... Everyone who heard it commented on how quiet it was ... And how responsive / touch sensitive it was ...

The best part of it's maiden journey was at Gerald Ross' home ... He played his little Fender steel through it ... Then went down and got his big hollow body jazz guitar and treated us all to an hour of finger style Spanish guitar playing ... What a treat

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 21 Dec 2013 5:59 am

Here are some photos of it's guts ...

The Steel Guitar Forum

That "SOUND" is gone forever !!

Re: that 'pop'..................

'pop' this

New /age Amps

Hey there Bruddha!

Good point!

Hummmmmmmm.............