Advance By Ditching Emulation Practices

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Jun 2003 5:35 am

Bill H.
I believe the issue raised in your first post that both Eric and I originally addressed was not whether or not he, or anyone else, could play his list of 5 "Easy" Pieces suitably.

Rather, the subject was whether or not learning the classic solos was a "waste of time" (your words).

Whether or not anyone can successfully pull off the solos onstage or on recording bears no relationship to the value of attempting to learn techniques that comprise the solos.

As you may recall, your position was that the effort itself was a waste of time. That is the position that Eric (and I) disgree with, and which you haven't yet commented upon. But if you've nothing more to add to the table, we can simply agree to disagree on each other's respective positions.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 12 June 2003 at 07:10 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Jun 2003 7:10 am

Herb S.,

Are you serious? Is it not obvious to you that you've taken my original statement completely out of context. Why on earth would I stoop to discourage fellow steel guitarists from progressing to the best of their ability? It just isn't so. Many times in the past I've invited beginner steel guitarists into my home for reasons that are contrary to what you have implied. We are currently preparing for our 21st Annual Massachusetts Pedal Steel Guitar Bash, where the players are made to feel at home, and receive all due respect for their achievements. At the present time, I have the greatest respect for you as a fine gentleman, who has found pleasures by choosing the steel guitar as your favorite musical instrument. I must be wary though, lest you misinterpret my statements, and inadvertently take them out of context, which by the way, is what can occur in this thread by reading inappropriate and unintended meanings from my original statement. I do resist strong currents in relation to musical challenges, and have learned that recording studios can pose major stumbling blocks, for the ardent emulator. I've addressed that issue a few times to no avail. The relevance has been passed over by those who may feel that looking into the matter, would not be in everyone's best interest. Thanks for jolting me awake. I appreciate your responses.

Bill H.

Junior Knight · Post by **Junior Knight** » 12 Jun 2003 9:34 am

As for me...
I can't play like anyone else..I can TRY to get as close to the lick as I can but I can't be perfect(like the player who played the lick). The way I see it...the good Lord
gave us a heart and soul...USE IT! If you can copy a lick just like the record, GREAT!!! If you can get CLOSE...GREAT! Put all the licks that you have learned from the GREATS...and put them in your bag of tricks...and come up with your own style!!!
Just my cent and a half. Junior.

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Bb is where it's at!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 12 Jun 2003 9:59 am

I don't think any of us who have taken issue with Bill's initial suggestion (which I interpreted as 'it's a waste of time to learn by imitating the greats' -- and that may not have been Bill's intention, but that's how I read it) are obsessed with becoming a carbon copy of ANYONE. It's the IDEAS we copy. The way those ideas are used and the feeling behind it is found in the mind and soul of the player and are personalized by filtering through another set of ears, fingers, and soul. Best way I've found to understand how a masterful musician interprets music is to learn bits and pieces of solos or instrumentals as close as I can get it and then go from there. I don't think anyone was advocating becoming a steel playing jukebox. I just feel that listening to how Junior interprets a ii V I change, then comparing to how Buddy or Paul or ???? (Johnny Gimble or Miles Davis or Phil Baugh for that matter) might do it SAVES TIME in developing one's personal style -- it doesn't WASTE TIME.

I still totally disagree with the proposition that imitating others' musical creations is a waste of time.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 12 Jun 2003 10:00 am

In five years of college, I didn't get as much wisdom or entertainment as I have from this thread. In other words, I reckon you guys er perty smart. Funny, too.

The most serious conversation I can recall having with six-stringers went something like this:

"You gonna drink the last Lone Star?"
"Yup"

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 12 Jun 2003 11:44 am

It's not "getting there" that matters.

It's the "journey" that is most important.

my $.00002

Terry

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 12 Jun 2003 12:13 pm

Bill, your reply to Eric "West" regarding the 5 easy pieces, and "Orange Blossom Special," was the most easily read, and comprehended, post I've ever seen you put up. I have no doubt that you are an intelligent man, a lifelong student of the steel guitar, and that you want to improve the instrument itself, and I salute you.
But I have a hard time with some of your posts, due simply to the misuse/overuse of big ol' words, seemingly for their own effect. Most of us enjoy your posts, evidenced by the large number of responses most of them generate. But, and I speak ONLY for myself here, I'd enjoy 'em more, If I only knew what you were saying!
Have a great day!

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 12 Jun 2003 12:28 pm

no your not Tony ! offer it to Bill will ya' !

he deserves a good lone star fer gettin the worms outta the can

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 12 June 2003 at 01:29 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Jun 2003 12:42 pm

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 12 June 2003 at 01:44 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Jun 2003 12:43 pm

Stephen,

In plain words, are you opining that although you eschew any vestige of disapprobation vis a' vis the vaunted cerebral musings of Mssr. Hankey, you find his seemingly unceasing utilization of verbosity and polysyllabism, and that of Herculean, if not mythic, proportion, to be obfuscatory? And that some constituents of this very community, this melange' of those devoted to divine pedalisms, may find such usage of the Mother Tongue, through their own unfortunate denial of access to the appropriate institutionalized lingual database... that being the assemblage of codifications as graciously afforded to us by Mssrs. Merriam and Webster... during their respective formative periods, might find the above referenced usage to be ever-so-slightly supercilious?

Knowwhutahmean, Vern?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 12 June 2003 at 01:53 PM.]

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 12 Jun 2003 12:56 pm

There must be something wrong with my computer. When I read Herb's message, all I see is "blah blah blah blah blah blah....".

Perhaps I've read too many legal documents today.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Jun 2003 1:03 pm

Lee, are you perhpas suggesting a new communicative paradigm for your fraternal associate, he that resides in the capital city of our fair constituent of the Federal Union?

Gotta go to mah gig now. Later, dudes.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Jun 2003 1:21 pm

Junior K.,

I want to tread lightly, and with great repect, respond to your kind reflections. I must remain mindful that everything I've read about you, is of a positive nature.

Please permit me to explain briefly, my position on the fascinating quality, of trying to round up as many intros, licks, dynamics, and scales of all descriptions, as is possible. As the search goes on, and the collections mount, then comes the decision of how and where to use the memory stored multiple licks on a broad spectrum.
The same applies to learned melodies. I think it is fair to ask, how many learned melodies are filed in row "B", that are only played on rare occasions. Just like old friends who have moved away, there is something distasteful about abandoning a long forgotten melody.

Take heart though, the ultimate goal is to work hard to find new and clever arrangements on the steel, that will twist the necks of the listeners so suddenly, that hats will hit the floor.

When I took aim at emulation, I truly surmised that there would be those who would refute the notion by taking steps to put down the concept. Many have pointed out how well they've moved forward by tracking a given player. With that in mind, seriously consider that every individual is at a different level of playing. They are like fingerprints, where two alike cannot be found.

With the realization that steel guitarists are one of a kind, the probability of placing individual steel guitarists at different plateaus of learning is not unthinkable. It is from these plateaus that a new dawning may very well stir a new outlook, as the player learns that originality offers many advantages not thought of previously.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 12 June 2003 at 02:36 PM.]</F [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 12 June 2003 at 10:17 PM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 13 June 2003 at 04:26 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 12 Jun 2003 1:22 pm

"may find such usage of the Mother Tongue..."

I would only change the word usage to misusage.

I'll delete the remainder of my post...who cares anyway... [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 12 June 2003 at 10:20 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 12 Jun 2003 2:56 pm

Naaww. I know insulting when I see or hear it.

I think that Bill's just bored, as we all get from time to time, and probably, like me, just wants some kind of record of his thoughts, scattered as they might be (in my case) to be stuck away somewhere.

I actually do have some pretty good bandstand recordings of stuff I've done over the years, as well as some CDs, but I rarely keep them. I'm more of a "live" guy and it's a real job to get me into a studio. It takes money, and a burger doesn't hurt either..

I've become pretty secure with my playing, and never tend to engage in the "I can play better than you" stuff. Or waste time playing "defence". I don't really care. If I wasn't more concerned with which paying gigs I could ditch to get myself more time than whether I could get more than one, or none, then I might experience a pang or two.. Any of my "flights of fancy" have been recently put away by going over the PF E9 series, and knowing that there are even people that often play faster, and more articulate than that.. OR I go out here locally and see Pete Burak, Larry Behm, Doug Jones, Felix, Ray M or Dale Granstrom. That'll send me home to practice my "emulation" in a hurry.,.

I've got a nice video with sound of Raisin' the Dickens' I did with a Band at Portland's Mayors Ball in the late 80s. ( the sound turned out better than the video) nand I've got a bunch of recent bandstand videos of "OBS", but the band I play it with chops it up and does it without the "B" section, much to my dismay. They decided to "ditch the emulation", and came up with somethng "more comfortable" to "suit their style"..

I'm gonna get Randy Yearout, the old bandleader to run me off one Raisin' on CD and I can edit it and post it I'm sure.

I've got a couple situations brewing that remind me what "real insult" is. Possibly the principals involved will think better of it, but one can always hope....

Anyhow.

Thanks for the replies, Bill, and all to my portion of the "discussion".

Tee up, as they say..

EJL

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 12 Jun 2003 10:18 pm

Jim Phelps,

Wrong!! Step back and review the preceeding taunt that Eric amusingly submitted, urging me to "fess" up, or stand up and be counted. "Getting to you" is not the most consoling choice of words. They too possess the characteristics of an abrasive attitude, But, surprisingly, it doesn't affect my peace of mind. My intent was to serve notice on Eric, that if he chooses to play hardball, I can toss a few curves of my own. I haven't met the player who's big guns are not cooled down a bit, when an attempt is made to rough it while playing "The Orange Blossom Special". It's a serious challenge when the fiddlers and drummers throw the tempo a little out of reach, and the steel guitarists find themselves on very unsteady ground. This I've learned of course, long ago. A harmonica player can speed up the melody suddenly, and to follow the tempo would mean calling up ones greatest efforts. On my own, I've tapped into other resources, utilizing modifications, and special note arrangements to cope with speed advocates. According to Eric's accounts, he is comfortable playing recordings (listed in his reply), and requests information about my ability to do so. What have you to say in regard to his requests? Above all, please keep in mind, that I admire Eric, and actually feel inferior to him musically. I'm on this forum to exchange ideas and offer my hand in a friendship bonding. I'm not here to belittle anyone.

Bill H.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 13 Jun 2003 1:39 am

I can usually understand Mr. Hankey's comments by making a little effort, certainly less effort than is needed to understand a lot of those "stale licks that some dumb hillbilly found by accident mashing on the pedals of his Sho-Bud", to quote a memorable predecessor. Could it possibly be that this "I sho cain't unnerstand nuttin' wit mo than two syllables" kind of aw-shucks good ol' boyism is as least as much an affectation as Mr. Hankey's convoluted but apparently heartfelt musings?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Jun 2003 3:26 am

Herb LOL

you said a mouthfull...
And I understood every word!
Without a doctorate in romance languages!
But I do speak geek if needs be.

Better to get out the dictionary and learn a new word,
than bemoan in the darkness a new word that isn't clear. And castigate those who decide to use them appropriately.

Lingustic eloquence is not a curse, but a blessing.

Why must we write to the lowest common denominator, rather than occasionally try and lift all to a high plain of comprehension?
Profiter la ou gagne rien!

Chippy Wood · Post by **Chippy Wood** » 13 Jun 2003 3:44 am

When I worked in a Hospital as a Nurse Tutor I would instruct the Nurses as per the book, I would also teach them a few ways that I found helpful, after the lecture I would always advise them to learn from anyone and everyone, choose the best bits of whatever they had learnt and combine them to make it an easier amd better process in order that the Patient benefitted from it. The same applies to learning the steel guitar in my opinion.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 13 Jun 2003 4:55 am

...running a bunch of big words together in an unartistic jumble is not "linguistic elegance"...

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 13 Jun 2003 6:13 am

Pat B.,

Thank you for the abbreviated circumlocution depicting literary rectification as something out of place on this forum.

Bill H.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 13 Jun 2003 7:04 am

This is a great thread! We all seem to agree that musicians have to emulate someone or something. The disagreement seems to be with whom is best to copy.

When I was on the road with Tillis we hired a bass player who could read and play all the Jaco Pastorious and Poppin' bass you could ever dream of flawlessly. Because of his vast knowledge of theory he believed he was beyond this band playing simplistic country tunes. After a few shows of his struggling with the wrong bass notes in one of our opening songs and his elitist attitude towards it. Our fiddle player leaned over to him and said "You sure know how to play Jazz, but all that Jaco Pastorious didn't get your *ss through Fire on the Mountain, did it?". There is so much wisdom in that fiddle players cut.

What to learn should be determined by what musical direction we choose to pursue in our careers.

Can anyone name a great musician that hasn't disected other musicans solo's and compositions? I personally have never met one. At some point this is how everyone learns. It is certainly the best way to learn how theory is actually applied on the bandstand.

Paul

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 13 Jun 2003 9:01 am

Bill. I am among the worst offenders for not completely reading ones' posts before shooting my keyboard off, but I meant none, nor have I taken any offence to anything on any of your threads.

I don't remember asking you to post your recordings to "prove" your ability. I frankly never thought of it, and I think it might have been somebody else. You did "spur" me to take a kind of a hillbilly inventory or some of the cuts, from 45 to CD of the stuff I've done. The one that I can think of of R the D I'm definitely going to go over and get from that old Bandleader, if for no other reason than to have it.

On OBS. Those seven note "T, 1, 2, Crossover" rolls on BE's OBS were an ingenious way to cope with the "speed aspect" when the "band" tries to bring OBS up past the area that "can" be played by the "hapless" steel player. I don't know right here and now where he came up with them, or if they're even "his". They work, and that's all I know.

On other "speed" stuff, I have adapted a half dozen "ideas" like the "albert lee" seventh, the "moving root fifth" or the to frets down A pedal down two frets up, no pedals, the "foggy mountain breakdown tag" and bunch of others to help me through them. for the most part, they worked, but after 10-20 some years, I've gotten tired of them. I don't know if the bands have, mainly because except for a couple members of the 30 some bands I've played with successfully in the "prime job" here in PDX, they just aren't around. Probably it was something I said...

Anyhow. I picked the PF CD series to get some "fresh ideas". You know it occurred to me that somewhere in between playing with Jerry Reed, ( a master of "short cuts") nearly 30 YEARS AGO and a full page discograpy, that Mr Franklin might have picked up or come up with a few good ideas, or shortcuts, that I would benefit from studying. Turns out I was right. It has helped me break through my "slump" or my "players' block" that I momentarily had.

"Emulation" or "mimic" is the very basis of music. David the Sheperd Boy took lessons from somebody. Individual Style is something that cannot fortunately be escaped.

I just had an experience that I hesitate to relate, but I just spent two weeks trying to "emulate" a local monster player to fill in for him on his gig. I did reasonably well, though I still had many things to "work on". Come to find out, I didn't take the gig for other reasons. The evening I shucked it, I got a call to fill in for another local guy that plays "simpler" "more straight ahead" country. I was relieved, because "my style" will fit that gig better.

In the mean time, the PF series, ( at the risk of "leg humping"), have certainly given me new ideas as to how and where to put in "pregnant pauses", how to start licks on other beats, and ideas on how to smoothly move up and down the fretboard, ( slanted illuminated, "defishtailed" or not). I'm glad he took the time to set that stuff down. I didn't just "skim them". From Bud C 25 years ago I learned that unless you are willing to learn the whole thing, note for note, from beginning to end, you are wasting both individuals' time. This, mind you, is just MY take on how I do things. I'm not always right, but then, I don't have to be. I'm ME.

Bill. Consider The Chameleon. A fine example of Emulation, in Nature. Do you think "he" is a less honorable creature because he has learned to emulate? Less "Unique"? Certainly he is ahead of the million or so other now extinct lizards that "refused" to do so..

Again, thanks for helping me solidify my "thinking process". It's nice to be able to do so without acrimony. Re-reading things certainly helps to clear up misunderstandings, as to "what" came from "whom".

Imagine a World with NO Hypothetical Situations.

I dare you.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 13 June 2003 at 10:24 AM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 Jun 2003 9:37 am

Paul makes good points...with Paul's experience and ability I should think that we can give some credence to his ideas, don'tcha think......?

Mr. Hankey, you posted "Thank you for the abbreviated circumlocution depicting literary rectification as something out of place on this forum."

I realize language is not the original subject of this thread, but since you yourself are addressing the usage (and/or misusage) of language in this, your own thread; so I feel I also have the same right to address that issue.

I don't believe literary eloquence is "out of place" here.... but, don't you think you tend to overdo it just a bit? In your earlier post on page two, addressed to Chris Scruggs, in which you told a little about your "life experiences", you wrote without all your usual wordiness....I actually enjoyed your post. Not because I don't have the intelligence to understand your big-word posts, nor do I lack the ability to use 64,000-dollar-words myself. As you can see by some of the previous tongue-in-cheek responses, (Jim Cohen's version of "Dark and Stormy Night" is a standout) many "Forumites" have the intelligence and ability to exhibit.....what did you call it....."linguistic rectification"... at least equal to and even far exceeding your own ability with the language, when they so choose. Most don't speak or write that way in everyday life because IMHO, it's unnecessary and sounds very PRETENTIOUS, appearing to be an attempt to demonstrate superior intelligence, an attitude of superiority......is that not the purpose of your well-known verbosity? If not, then I apologize to you. If you believe that you're a linguistic artist or something to that effect, then that's fine, whatever makes you happy. On the other hand, maybe you should consider the negative side already mentioned above. I say this not to insult or hurt your feelings. Think about it.

OK, back to the topic.....what was it again...?

Oh yeah. IMHO, a player can learn invaluable technique from learning and attempting to emulate solos or licks from the great players, especially if they're paying very close attention to the players' technique, not just the notes. When I was young I tried copying some of Chet Atkins playing from my record collection. Even when I could play the songs note-for-note, boy I sure didn't sound like Chet Atkins playing it and it drove me crazy. The reason was because I didn't have his technique. Studying the greats and trying to play songs, licks, solos or whatever the way they played them shows you what techniques you lack and helps in learning and developing them.

On the other hand, trying to emulate someone to the point of being a carbon copy of another player, is (again just my own opinion) stupid, the musician's version of the Elvis Impersonators....

OK, I'm done now.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 June 2003 at 01:02 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 13 Jun 2003 10:39 am

Even more than music, speech is communication, right? (Okay, I hear a collective "Duh" from the Forum,

).

Well, communication doesn't take place when the words are spoken, but rather when the light bulb goes on over the head of the person hearing the words.

People find those who write in a "conversational" style, the way we talk to each other, easier to immediately comprehend than those who write in a needlessly florid and over-adjectived style. The transfer of ideas and information happens more quickly, because the speaker and listener recognize they're on the same page, at least in terms of words and speech.

The vast majority of us here in Forumland write in a conversational style, for the most part. Sometimes I use "big words" because they're the most efficient way of saying what I want to say, but most of the time I'd rather have the folks understand what I'm saying as quickly as possible.

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