Advance By Ditching Emulation Practices

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 9 Jun 2003 6:54 pm

Herb,
I'm with you. Its great when a guy can really nail a great steel standard and make it real. Being able to do that is great stuff. What I'm talking about is that when steel players just play whatever riffs they know and disregard the musical context they are currently in. One of the amazing things about masters like Emmons or Green is how there playing helped the tune and reflected the singers phrasing. When somebody just plays a cool sounding Emmons lick without being able to make it part of the music it doesn't do much for me.

I personally don't worry about being able to play like anybody else. I study other steel players when I have extra time or a gig that demands it but I have found that my practice time is more productive when I work on the nuts and bolts stuff underneath the riffs.

Bob

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 9 Jun 2003 7:02 pm

I love the pedal steel precisely because it was invented by so-called dumb hillbillies, and yet it is one of the most complicated and difficult instruments to play on earth. The only thing of equal difficulty I know of is a pipe organ with several keyboards, dozens of stops and a full set of floor pedals. And the music the best of these hillbillies and cowboys have played on pedal steels is sometimes as complicated as anything Bach wrote for a single instrument. And they do it the same way Bach invented alot of his stuff, by ear from scratch. In Bach's day they loved to have improvisational competitions.

Now I also love Bach and Mozart and like to try to stumble through some of their stuff on my pedal steel - usually through earphones when no one else is listening.

Cultural anthropologists have a concept called cultural relativism. It assumes people from different cultures have the same basic abilities for complicated and intricate things and will accomplish similar levels of complexity if their culture encourages it. In other words, a professional musician playing instrument A and music of type B in one society will achieve about the same level of complexity and subtlety as another professional musician in another culture playing instrument C and music of type D. They both have the same number of hours in a day and the same number of years to perfect their art. Of course there are the occassional geniuses, but they occur in all cultures. I doubt that Bach or Rachmaninoff would have played pedal steel any better than Buddy or Curley if they had been born the same time and place. And who knows what Buddy and Curley would have done if they were born into a Baroque musical family? Because we have so many more people alive today, there are more geniuses alive today than ever before at any one time.

But classical musicians do have some things to their advantage over popular musicians. They usually start on their instrument very young, about the same time they start grammer school, and they practice hours daily for many, many years before reaching the professional level. A lot of country pickers start playing guitar or something as kids, but not usually in the same disciplined manner. And very few start out on pedal steel as kids. Most steelers move over from a few years of playing guitar, and not until they are young adults. Imagine what would happen if they started really young and learned music reading and theory over many years the way classical musicians do.

Meantime, back to Bill's starting post - I think a lot of people do learn a lot from copying the past masters. But I agree with Bill it is frustrating for novices. After all, I quit piano lessons and took up guitar for the fun of it. Without working hard at copying, maybe I wont progress as far and as fast as I might, but I'll have more fun - which is why I play, and why I am an amateur (from the Latin for one who does what he does for the love of it, not for pay).

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Jun 2003 9:15 pm

who knows what Buddy and Curley would have done if they were born into a Baroque musical family

You can bet yer cowboy boots that harpsichord would be plumb wore out. Those guys could make relevant music on a comb and tissue paper.

I'm somewhat in between on this issue. I like to learn other players' thought process, which usually entails transcribing and copping selected passages -- be they solos or instrumentals or what have you.

I DON'T like being a slave to someone else's musical choices. I do reserve that right for myself and rarely, if ever, quote someone else's solo note-for-note on stage. I'll certainly dissect out the parts I find useful, twist it around, and call it my own, without one iota of shame. Hell, Emmons and Chalker did it themselves.

Any musician who ignores the work of the most accomplished practitioners of their instrument is the one wasting his/her time in my opinion. and that and 75 cents will ALMOST buy you a cup of coffee -- as long as you're not at Starbucks

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 9 Jun 2003 9:40 pm

I don't want to hijack this thread to debate cultural relativism etc. (Maybe on the Music forum...)
Back on topic : Herb and I have had this conversation before. I try to avoid copying steel parts, or repeating what I have played before. Unfortunately I'm not very creative, so I try to practice Bach and various other things just to get some other ideas under my fingers. I don't feel that employers are pressuring me to change that. But I gather from Herb that things must be different in Texas.
[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 09 June 2003 at 10:45 PM.]

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 9 Jun 2003 9:51 pm

Bird learned every Prez solo he could find on record. You can hear how that prevented him from developing his own style.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 9 Jun 2003 11:40 pm

Right, Dave. Bird had a gig at some kind of a resort in the mountains of MO and took his Lester Young records with him and spent most of his off time learning the solos note for note. That gave him a solid basis from which to progress even more and to develop his own style. When he got back to KC musicians started to bend an ear when he played, and he began developing a rep. If that worked for him it might work for some of us. It's hard to believe that you can develop your own syle and become great without learning what the masters before you have done.

I mean, be realistic here. Do you think Jerry Garcia or Ron Wood studied Emmons or Chalker? Hell, no. They just played what they felt, what they thought they could bring off with their limited experience and dedication to the instrument.

C#

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 10 Jun 2003 1:54 am

Go Herb!!!

Larry Carlton said there is only ONE of each of us. We can steal from each other all we like, and that is probably good because we will learn something, but in the end, we ALL are going to sound different. Do your best to play what you feel.

In order to master a skill, one must apprentice with a master, or one who is gifted enough to have discovered his "voice" in the instrument or what ever medium. AND practice, practice, practice.

Since we are all so much on our on, all we have is the recordings, and an occasional lesson from someone we really admire and whom we think might impart some real skill.

In the end, you WILL find your own voice, but not before trying to emulate those before you. Their voices will come through you, but it will be YOURS that is heard. Your VOICE will reveal the genealogy of your exposure to those you have studied/emulated in the past. As Herb said, once you have a vocabulary you can speak. We all learned our vocabulary from listening to others.

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Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

[This message was edited by Bill Fulbright on 10 June 2003 at 03:02 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 10 Jun 2003 2:31 am

I'm the one who injected Bach into this stew, without the intent of generating acrimony. My feeling is that you're going to get good at what you practice, so with limited time available the goals you set are crucial. If you want to get a job playing steel in a country band, by all means you have to learn that vocabulary. Most of the time, a producer or songwriter looking to put a steel part into a different genre is going to be looking for some of that "pedal-mashing hillbilly" sound, because they're more familiar with that than with Jernigan's jazz or Perlowin's classical playing. There's nothing wrong with that, either. However, I do think that steel would be less stereotyped in other people's minds, and steel players would get more work, if more players made more effort to listen to and play music other than just that of other steel players. My own personal interests lie in writing original instrumental music, and I feel that the most productive use I can make of my limited time is in learning standards, reading classical music, and trying (in my own retarded fashion) to analyze the construction of that music. And "noodling" a lot. Of course, b0b has got me listening to some surf/punk stuff, and I still crank up "Spongebob Squarepants" occasionally just for the steel playing. It strikes me that steel would be very well suited for TV and movie soundtrack work, if more producers were aware of it's versatility. Didn't both Emmons and Jernigan record some classical pieces?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Jun 2003 3:40 am

Bobby Lee,

I want to be certain that my position relating to practice sessions, is clearly understood. I can easily envision a given player strolling into the practice room, where a steel guitar is resting upon a carpeted floor, glistening, as its shiny exterior reflects rampant sunbeams from reflective objects in the room. As the steel guitar becomes the object of the greatest interest, the player recalls vividly, how much new savvy his/her last session yielded, as he/she reaches for the A.C. floodgates. The speakers are humming as the hunter becomes the "hounded". Hounded by the memory that capturing desirable "licks" can be a long drawn out struggle if the tabulation is not available. Circling the prized instrument, the subject peers intently at the playing surface of the steel, while instinctively and habitually donning the metal finger picks. The expression and mood is reserved, as the padded seat restores a diminished haughty confidence, that occurred when the last session produced only minimal successes, due to a maximum outbreak of stressful searches. The true worth of weariness should be measured by successes, not failures. In other words, don't perspire or become too frustrated, whenever the fleetest pull a double timed routine of flashy note patterns. Remember the words selected by the late J. Day, according to hearsay, "You may outspeed me, but you won't outbleed me." I actually heard the great Chet Atkins say in person during a brief interlude, between performances at Stanley Park with the Springfield, Ma. Symphony Orchestra, "I wish that I could play it twice the same way." Some may think, why dredge? Because everyone dredges, to find elusive truths that are not in conformity with everyday thoughts. Gossip columnists dredge, as well as notable musicians. I would risk saying that printed musical histories will be seriously remiss, should they not give all due credits to the late "Little Roy Wiggins." His contributions relating to E. Arnold's recordings, suggest tireless researching, to grant all the credits that are part of steel guitar history. "Little Roy Wiggins" once said to me, "It's easy to be different..it should be everybody's goal, to break away from the "pack"... I don't do things because other people do them..it's hard to be extremely better.. but.. just do your own thing." The words were spoken by a man who remained faithful to his music throughout his long career.

I believe that the comments made by musicians of renown, should reflect or suggest, that emulating can pose problems when the pressure is on, or when creativity is brushed aside, while being "lured" into a false trace of bravado, that can easily go haywire during performances.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 June 2003 at 06:36 AM.]

Tony LaCroix · Post by **Tony LaCroix** » 10 Jun 2003 5:52 am

"BB King came up with his style by trying to emulate the sound of a bottleneck. He ended up "sounding like himself," but he had to start somewhere"

Yes, but in his early recordings, he sounds A LOT like T-Bone Walker. Stevie Ray Vaughan sounded A LOT like Albert King when he was younger.

And, as a beginner, I must say that without "copying" the stuff of other players, I would be effectively mute.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 10 Jun 2003 6:07 am

...the great players in any style didn't learn in a vacuum, just sitting down at a totally foreign instrument, begin playing whatever, and then have the hubris to call it their "style." They learned from the past....Byrd and Murph learned from the Hawaiians. Buddy and Day learned from Byrd and Murph. Franklin and Tommy W. learned from Buddy and Day.

...who did the Hawaiians learn from?...

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Jun 2003 6:40 am

I think the first issue that has to be considered is one's goals in playing steel guitar. Many people are content to stay at home and amuse themselves and their families with their best doggone Buddy Emmons imitation, along with rhythm tracks. There's nothing wrong with that. You can take the tablature and really work at getting it down smoothly and fluidly, and learn a lot of technique along the way. That's cool. If that's your ambition with steel, go for it and have fun.

But let's face it, that does not make you "a steel guitarist". IMHO, what makes one "a steel guitarist" is having at one's disposal a sufficient command of the instrument to be able to communicate your own musical thoughts and ideas. As many have noted above, learning from the greats is an excellent way to work on achieving that level of command.

The problem, as I see it, comes when we do nothing more than learning someone else's licks and songs, and never take it to the next level. I've been guilty of that in the past and suspect that most of my steel bretheren (and sisteren?) would also confess to it, if sufficiently lubricated.

So, OK Cohen, how do you get to the next level? IMHO, you have to get past the physical commands of mashing pedal A and B while plucking strings 5 & 6, and start thinking about WHY this great Emmons lick sounds so good in this context. What is the context here? Is it a V to I move? A iim7 to V7 move? Once you identify what the context is, you have to then force yourself (often against your will, if you're like me!) to use it in other places where that same context occurs. Ask yourself, "Self... do I know any other places where a song goes from I to IV?"

Of course you do! Well, pick one! Take something else you play with your band, or at home, and look at the I to IV spots, and now force yourself to play that cool Emmons lick in those spots instead of the kinds of things you "usually" do when you get to that point in the song. You'll quickly hear which options sound good to you and which ones are only so-so. Take one cool lick and make it the "lick of the week": play it everywhere it can possibly be played, including a few places where it probably shouldn't and the rest of your band just rolls their eyes at you and think to themselves, "No, not there too!

, but the audience doesn't care cuz it's a casual bar gig or something and they're too busy line dancing to even notice what lick you played.

The other thing you'll need to do is to figure out how to "hook up" this lovely lick with the rest of the stuff in your bag of tricks, in other words, how are you gonna get into that lick, without suddenly jumping to it, and how are you gonna get out of it, without just dropping the ball. When you figure these things out for yourself, you'll be well on the road to integrating the new idea into your own playing style, so that it becomes available to you as an option in the heat of battle, instead of just being an Emmons lick that you only think of when you are playing that one Emmons song in that one key.

The next level, as Larry Bell, has mentioned above, is to try to turn the lick around, backwards, or inside out and then play it in the I to IV (or whatever) context. This really starts to get you to understand what you're doing and why.

Bottom line, IMHO, is not that "copying the greats" is the problem (assuming you want to become a "real steel guitarist") -- we all need to do some copying. The problem is when we only copy the greats, without understanding what they were doing and why and then adapting that understanding to our own playing and integrating it into our own playing style. You can still have a lot of fun playing someone else's tablature, and if that's your ambition on steel, have a great time with it. But, if your ambitions reach beyond that, I'd say copying the greats is a stage that is "necessary but not sufficient" on the road to musicianship.

This has been a long post, for which I apologize. [This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 10 June 2003 at 07:43 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 10 Jun 2003 6:48 am

The Hawaiians learned from the sailors who came through. But few left their fiddles and squeezeboxs, to be played on. A few left old guitars, but no instruction books about chords..
So they just improvised what they had heard, based on a chord they could make sound nice, added to their tradtional singing... et voila a new style is born with slide in it.

Steal everything, then forget it.
What comes out will be you.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 10 June 2003 at 07:49 AM.]

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 10 Jun 2003 6:53 am

...that is long, Jim...and rather than noodle around trying to think up an original answer all by myself, I think I'll copy your masterful answer and then add my own stylistic $.02 at the end...

...yadda yadda yadda, and who did teach the Hawaiians?...

...by the way, Jim, I agree with you 100%, which, unfortunately, is the intellectual equivalent playing your tabbed licks in my bedroom...not that there's anything wrong with that!...

...and thank you, David...I suspected as much...[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 10 June 2003 at 08:02 AM.]

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 10 Jun 2003 6:58 am

Mr. Bill Hankey,

Your writings are reminiscent of the modern journalist: Fill the space and pay attention to style, never mind that substance is nonexistant.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 10 Jun 2003 7:01 am

I think what Jim is saying is that being a musician is different than being an instrument operator...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Jun 2003 7:03 am

Wonderful dissertation . . . wonderful sentiment, Jimbeaux. Couldn't agree more.

I think there are several phases in a musician's development, something like this
1. What is this thing? How does it make music? And, for that matter, WHAT IS MUSIC? How does IT work? What is a scale?
many never make it past this phase, BTW

2. OK, I can make notes sound good, how do I string them together with something other than random ordering? How did the best players do it? What sounds good? How do I play within those scales I learned and not sound like a finger exercise?

3. OK, I can string notes together and am beginning to understand why I like what Buddy or Paul did on a certain song. How can I take that and make it work for ME? WHAT DOES MY VOICE ON THIS INSTRUMENT SOUND LIKE?

4. What have the players who came before me not explored?
you can't really know the answer unless you have studied what they did.

5. And . . . if you get through all that other stuff . . . WHAT IS THE TRUE MEANING OF LIFE?

In other words, I still believe strongly that players must listen to the voices outside their head BEFORE they can develop their own inside their head. I know of no proficient musician who developed their style in a vacuum. Not to say it can't be done, but having some root in the music that came before provides a bridge to the future.

Just MHO.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 June 2003 at 08:09 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Jun 2003 7:05 am

Dan H.

I remember when Dr. DeBakey requested just beer as his last nourishment. I also remember how precious were the moments that early heart surgery produced for those afflicted with an ailing heart. It would be important to remember that the follow-up care received by a patient, is subject to scrutiny, by those who are closely bonded to the hopes for recovery. Your inference is correct and logical up to a point, whereby when differentiated for the purpose of exposing an oversight, one quickly notices that unlike musicians, who are gifted in their endeavors, (there are many), the chances of emulating Dr. De Bakey are slim. There are literally thousands of C D and Cassette recordings for sale, with accompanying tabulation, which offer a variety of easy to follow instructions. For the advanced musician, check out some of the smoking hot licks created to emphasize blocking techniques, and special skills. The costs are minimal, with benefits far exceeding those which involve a one on one lesson.
It is from these "hubs" of learning processes, that a given player should be prepared to break away, and assume a much wider, orbital
range; musically.

Bill H.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 10 Jun 2003 7:52 am

(burp)

I know I'll have another...

EJL

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Jun 2003 8:06 am

Ooh, I just thought of a good analogy. Just playing someone else's tablature is like painting by numbers. The final picture looks pretty good, even "professional"! But only you know the "dirty little secret" that underneath each of those colors, there's a tiny little number that told you what color to put in that spot. That's cool; just don't call yourself "an artist"!

(By the way, art students often will go to museums and copy, line by line, color by color the works of the great masters. It's how they learn technique and sensitivity. But the good ones surely don't stop there!)

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 10 Jun 2003 8:42 am

Rick Collins wrote

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Mr. Bill Hankey,
Your writings are reminiscent of the modern journalist: Fill the space and pay attention to style, never mind that substance is nonexistant.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill must have inadvertently omitted the first line, "It was a dark and stormy night..."

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Jun 2003 8:48 am

Bill must have inadvertently omitted the first line, "It was a dark and stormy night..."

"It was an evening characterized by the relative absence of luminescence normally emanating from the lunar orb of the cosmos, and the meterological characteristics were such that the elevated wind velocity buffeted the tangible precipitation to a degree normally associated only with the most extreme conditions, thereby causing heightened feelings of foreboding amongst all who perceived its portending qualities."

 (Copyright 2003, Acceptable Productions, Inc.)[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 10 June 2003 at 10:31 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 10 Jun 2003 9:03 am

Jim
You've a real sense of style, my friend. I couldn't have said it more succinctly myself.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 10 Jun 2003 9:18 am

I'm still trying to figure out how Mike DeBakey drinking beer on his death bed relates to whether a musician should emulate others as a part of his musical education. (by the way he IS still alive, as far as I can surmise)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 10 June 2003 at 10:23 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Jun 2003 9:50 am

The Hawaiians created their music from a combination of their traditional music and New England Christian missionary music. They got the guitar and ukelele from Portuguese sailors. But the use of the slide seems to have been a creative leap made by the Hawaiians themselves to duplicate vocal harmonizing. We'll be forever thankful for that.

Copying others is a major way in which humans learn - goes way back to the primates and monkies. But the creative leap to something completely new is what makes humans different, and what has created civilization.