Three wilds on U12...opinions sought

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 1 Dec 2013 1:03 pm

The standard U12 tuning has the E9th F# and D# as the two wild strings. I've noticed that a good number of experienced U12'rs tune string 2 to C sharp rather than the E9th styled D sharp. Most C6 copedants have a D as the single wild string, equivalent to C# in the B6 side of the universal tuning. The Zane Beck tuning uses C sharp in between the B and E but doesn't implement the 'wild strings' approach of C6th and E9th systems.

As far as I'm concerned the more note density the better in the higher register, and this C sharp seems so pivotal in so many tuning systems.

Should a truly universal tuning force a choice between two of three conventional wild strings?

With this reasoning, I have been very seriously considering adding C sharp to string three and moving everything down one tuning peg, thus top four strings would be F#, D#, C#, G#. Probably would drop the booming 'B' off string 12, as it see's very little use for my needs.

Without the benefit of an 'experimental guitar' and without willing to tear my steel down for a try, I did a partial simulation by tuning string 3 wayyy down to c sharp, just to see how it would feel, intuitive and useful, or not.

I liked it a lot. Of course in the full implementation, the g sharp would move down a string position.

Maybe three wilds makes a more complete universal tuning system?

Give it a try U 12 guys...I'd love your feedback before I spend half a day refitting my guitar permanently.

Dan Burnham · Post by **Dan Burnham** » 1 Dec 2013 5:37 pm

Tom,
I love the C# in the open tuning. I used it when I played Zane's tuning and I use it on the Jet10 Tuning. Couldn't live without it,

Dan

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 1 Dec 2013 5:41 pm

I think one benefit is except for one string it is the same as a E9 on a D10 right?

Dan Burnham · Post by **Dan Burnham** » 1 Dec 2013 7:19 pm

Zane's Copedant in 1977 is what I used to play.

Here is the Jet10 Tuning that I am currently playing:

C# is in a different place on both tunings but on the Jet10, you are able to keep the core E9 Tuning but get a full E6 tuning.

Until I played a copedant that had a C# in the open tuning I didn't realize what I was missing. Wouldn't do with out it.

Dan

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 2 Dec 2013 1:16 am

When it comes to tunings and setups, the only rule is that there are no rules. If you want to add a C#, string in between the B and E, or an F# string in between the E and G#, go ahead. If you don’t like it, you can change to something else.

Personally, I like having the chord notes on adjacent strings, and the non chordal notes on strings 1 and 2. I also tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it to D and D# on different knee levers. But just because that works for me, that doesn’t mean it will work for anybody else.

I think everybody experiments with different setups, till they decide what they prefer. And if they don;t, they should. I think every builder should make a guitar whose copedant is easily changed, so new players can try out different ways of setting their guitars up without a lot of hassle.

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 2 Dec 2013 3:10 pm

I get a C# on the second string by tuning to D# and lowering to C# with my RKR which also lowers E's on 4 and 8 to D# (the position I prefer on U12 because it gets my right leg out of the way to play the right side of the pedal board.)

Anyway, am I missing something by t his approach?

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 2 Dec 2013 4:37 pm

I had that change early on on my 'stock U12 copedent, but didn't like those pulls together, in fact, probably the first thing I got rid of when I got deeper into the u12, that was ten years ago (just getting back to steel after a 9 year hiatus), and if I recall I believe I felt constrained stylistically by it, if that makes sense...it sort of forces a certain 'mode' of playing, more that you can't get to that C# without also lowering the E's. Put it on the D# to D lever with a feel stop on D. Of course its possible to get c# with the A pedal. So all the notes are there to be found without another wild string, but hard to ignore the big stretch of clean picked notes and potential E6 opportunities that would find their way into phrasing, etc. For every change to anything, a whole lot of other things can move in diferent directions. I suppose as mr. Perlowin suggests, no rules, no right or wrong, just things that we prefer or get used to. I'm sure I'd use that clean c# about 1000x more than that low B string...haha, maybe someone can tell me everything I'd be losing because I really haven't played anything except maybe some wide grip bach stuff that needed that low b string anyways...

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 3 Dec 2013 8:04 am

Dan, thanks for posting the ZB and JET10 tunings. I particularly like what happens on strings 6 7 8 on the JET10 tuning, and the knee levers involved on those.

Also that it keeps the wild strings. And that there is an E6 flavor to it.

Very cool, I bet it plays easy and sounds great.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Dec 2013 2:58 pm

Bob, Tom, I did this short video on that exact topic.
I don't combine the 2nd string drop with the E# lever because using them together means that there's some things you can't do anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdfmMfzvcI4

Bob Simons · Post by **Bob Simons** » 3 Dec 2013 4:32 pm

I watched your video. Thanks for going to the trouble. Honestly, I don't agree that the one trick, however pretty, is worth it. Besides, isn't the effect available by raising the 5th string B-C# with the A pedal while you lower D# to C#?

With the lowers combined, in the 6th mode you get the C# on top that everyone seems to want which do with RKR. Just flop my leg to the right and I've got a straightforward B6 neck going...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Dec 2013 4:41 pm

Bob, while that preserves the relationship between strings 2 and 5, strings 1, 3, 4 and 6 now have a different relation to those two.
To me, that has come to make a significant contribution to my vocabulary, not quite like removing the word "to" from my lexicon, but about like "like." Sure, I could remove the word "like" from my speech and written communication, but efforts to work around its absence could prove a pain.

PS: it's no great bother: with my current job I can't gig and can rarely record. So on frequent Mondays, I set up my camera and guitar and rattle away.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 4 Dec 2013 8:01 am

WILD?????,,,all the notes on my guitar are within a chromatic scale,,,,,none are "wild"?????

When I was a kid (and sometimes still),playing with older country pickers, they would sometimes refer to the "off" chord, (meaning the II7),,,,I never understood "off",,,it wasn't "off",,,it blended good!!! To some I guess if it is outside the I, IV, V progression it is "off"

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 4 Dec 2013 9:25 am

Hi sonny, the first two strings on E9 are 'out of order' aka wild....just like my young kids...haha

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 4 Dec 2013 10:34 am

I suppose,,,IF someone wants to refer to them as,,,"wild",,,,,I just see them as a part of the chromatic scale,,,regardless of the "order",,,,hhuummmm,,I sometimes think ALL my strings are "wild",,,,,LOL

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 4 Dec 2013 1:02 pm

Lol

Remember that good music is about 'discoveries' (accidents?), as much as its about skill.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 4 Dec 2013 1:17 pm

Any note that is not in the E major triad is wild, way out, way off, and wrong (if you are Bo Diddley).

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 4 Dec 2013 2:19 pm

The good ole triatonic scale...haha.

Anyways guys, I've been holding off revising my copedent to the three wild strings because I had a gig coming up and didn't want to have sonny's wild fingers problem, but with that cancelled due to expected bad weather, I'm gonna make the copedent change and just live with it, my instincts tell me its the right thing to do.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 5 Dec 2013 10:14 am

??????? Didn't know I had any "wild" fingers problems,,,just commenting on my personal inability to see any of the notes in the scale,,,or on my guitar as "wild",,,,regardless of their relative position or sequence. Just never thought of them as being "wild",,,,just like I don't think of any chords outside the I, IV, V as being "off" chords. For those who see some strings as "wild",,,I would suggest "making friends" with them,,,include them, and treat them as "one of the family",,,(as they truly are,,,just another member of the scalular family)

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 5 Dec 2013 10:33 am

My U-12 was set up by Reece Anderson, probably the last he did before passing. The second string is a D#, my E pedal has stops , so first stop is D with no effect on string 4 and 8, then it lowers to C# when you lower your E's. On another lever it raises string two a half tone and raises string one a full tone. I never was able to receive a full explanation before he passed, but it has been working fine so far. I really miss Reece, he left too soon.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 5 Dec 2013 6:01 pm

Sonny Jenkins wrote:??????? Didn't know I had any "wild" fingers problems,,,just commenting on my personal inability to see any of the notes in the scale,,,or on my guitar as "wild",,,,regardless of their relative position or sequence. Just never thought of them as being "wild",,,,just like I don't think of any chords outside the I, IV, V as being "off" chords. For those who see some strings as "wild",,,I would suggest "making friends" with them,,,include them, and treat them as "one of the family",,,(as they truly are,,,just another member of the scalular family)

Hey sonny, thought that was what you meant when you joked sometimes you thought all your strings were wild....

As for making peace with the wild strings, you may recall that I'm looking for more of them, not questioning the scalular integrity of the ones I have. I don't love the specific beck tuning because the out of order concept just works so well for me. I do think you are reading too much in to the expression, and I expect you're joking about your concern over the name. Incidently, I never invented the name for the out of order strings, I think it was the inventor of the out of order strings...or buddy emmons or they are oissibly one and the same people, I don't know, that's just what I was told they were called many years ago...and believe it to be a good way to describe them as they are out of the regular order....

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 5 Dec 2013 8:57 pm

On the standard E9th, D# is necessary for scale runs in all 3 A+F positions. For example in the key of C, we have

F major at the 4th fret, G on string 2
G major at the 6th fret, A on string 2
C major at the 11th fret, D on string 2

If you are thinking of tuning your 2nd string to C#, be sure to have a knee lever that raises it to D# that you can use along with the standard E to F lever. Otherwise, you lose a lot on the E9th side of things.

Another thing to consider with those positions is that A+F plus the (new) C# to D# lever will cause more cabinet drop on the 6th string than what you would have in the standard tuning.

Jeff Newman lowered his 2nd string to C# on the same lever that lowered his E strings. That gave him the C6th first string D whenever he was in "sixth mode".

As for adding an extra string between the 2nd and 3rd, I don't think it's necessary. If you want to get rid on the low B on your 12 string, consider putting back the middle D from the E9th. It's a lot more useful than a high C# or a bass B, in my opinion.

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 6 Dec 2013 12:16 am

,bOb; Thanks for the thoughtful response, that last paragraph is a very relevant suggestion. It goes to the question of how can the realestate of the machine be made more valuable. My limited concern on the specific suggestion is that I play a lot of B6th style and a middle D would cause a 'split' in the B6th grips, I use four picks, etc. And generally happy with how I get my middle D in my copedent, from the middle E lower. (Maybe middle D should be wild on string 12, hahaha.)

I'm intent on keeping my F# and D#. My goal is to add functionality, and doing a C# raise rather than a D# lower is sort of a mirroring of preferences. The Newman styled D# to C# on the E lever was the first thing that got managed out of my copedent...couldn't bond with it - a change that makes all kinds of sense in theory, and yet seems to build walls in the tuning.

Here's a followup...how could you see a c# between string 2 and 3 being more useful than the standard string 12, or is it so redundant that its now worth thinking about, taking into account the beck use of it and c6th.

Brings me back to thanks for the input.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 6 Dec 2013 10:50 am

Buddy Emmons had a C# between his high B and E strings for several years. He abandoned the idea because of the the sympathetic activation of it from the pedaled C#.

The Sacred Steel players have a D string between high B and E. They raise it to D# for 6th-style playing, instead of lowering the high E. That's a very powerful concept. Some of them also have F# and D# as their first two strings. I tried it and couldn't get used to it.

Adding another string in the high octave gets you very close to the diatonic tuning concept, and the tempering issues associated with it. Do you tune this new C# string harmonically to the G# or to the F#? In other words, is it a strict unison with the A pedal, or is it designed to harmonize a perfect fourth with the 1st string, no pedals?

I played C6 with a middle D string for about four years. Since I'm used to 4-note grips, I didn't find it difficult to skip that string when necessary. As a bonus, my high C to C# lever also lowered the middle D to C#, giving me a nice choice of notes in the midrange.

My opinion is that another string in the high octave is musically redundant, but restoring the middle D string of the E9th has a lot of musical benefits. The only thing you lose (other than the lowest B) is the C6th thumb sweep, and even that is still possible if you learn to block the 9th string with your pinky.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 6 Dec 2013 11:29 am

b0b wrote:Buddy Emmons had a C# between his high B and E strings for several years.
...
The Sacred Steel players have a D string between high B and E.
...
My opinion is that another string in the high octave is musically redundant, .

My opinion is that the notes between high E string and B string are the best range for melodic playing with good tone. It is unfortunate that standard E9 tuning has a big gap right in this useful range. Another string may be redundant in the sense that you can already play C C# D D# with your pedals or moving the bar. But another string lets you articulate melodies better.
That's why the high D string is so useful on C6 tuning.

Here is a tuning I tried for a while when I was starting out
[tab]
P1 P2
F#
D#
G# A
E
D
B C#
A A#
G# A
F#
E
D
B C#
[/tab]
and
[tab]
P1 P2
F#
D#
G# A
E
C# D
B C#
A A#
G# A
F#
E
D
B C#
[/tab]
I did like it. If I had had more guitars to experiment with, I might have stuck with it. At the time I thought it would be better to move the D string outside (re-entrant).

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 6 Dec 2013 11:31 am

b0b wrote:
Adding another string in the high octave gets you very close to the diatonic tuning concept, and the tempering issues associated with it. Do you tune this new C# string harmonically to the G# or to the F#? In other words, is it a strict unison with the A pedal, or is it designed to harmonize a perfect fourth with the 1st string, no pedals?

Meantone tuning woks well here.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Three wilds on U12...opinions sought

Three wilds on U12...opinions sought

C#

Here is Zane Beck's Copedant and the Jet10