Tone vs Tuning

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 18 Jun 2003 2:55 pm

With all of these recent discussions concerning tone, I'm starting to miss all those fights, I mean discussions, we've had about JI vs ET tuning.

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 18 Jun 2003 4:14 pm

This is the final word on tuning, according to me: TURN THE DAMN KEYS UNTIL IT SOUNDS IN TUNE (Please, no more threads on tuning)

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 18 Jun 2003 4:32 pm

Ok Lee,

This is simple, I think. Let's see how simple it stays or how far off topic it goes.

I like JI. I know to tune my:
major thirds -13.7c
minor thirds +15.6
Major fifths +2.0
major sixths -15.6c

So, when I press two pedals to get a diminished, how should the minor fifth be tuned?
root 0.0c
minor third -13.7c
minor fifth ?
sixth -15.6c

Ron

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 18 Jun 2003 4:45 pm

I'm not going to ruin my style by tuning!

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 18 Jun 2003 6:18 pm

ya mean yer supposed to turn them 10 funny looking things at the left of the geetar, and the little screws at the right... I thought that was for them professional types... I havent touched either and my geetar sounds purdy good... someone should tell me how to turn them things sometime... then agian, why fix it if it aint broke

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 18 Jun 2003 6:50 pm

There is at least one aspect of this that hasn't been looked into very deeply, at least since I've been paying attention:

For those of you who tune JI on E9, how often do you have to do little slants to get it to sound right?

I'm really doing my best to make JI work, as I know that many players I respect do just fine with it. Playing a little sharp on the fret is one thing, but how often do folks actually slant the bar a bit?

Thanks,

Jeff

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 18 Jun 2003 7:47 pm

Jeff,
ALL of us.
There are constant little adjustments we make all the time. The closer to true JI, the more compromises. Tune that A+F C# chord to a perfect triad and then use the B to C# or E to F in other contexts and you'll see what I mean.

ET may help some, but the mechanical characteristics of the instrument -- detuning, temperature changes, bad strings, etc., will also cause problems even with ET. The Emmons counterforce gizmo helps some, according to the Big E, but anyone who expects any pedal steel to be perfectly true all the time is living in Fantasyland. (or else has a tin ear) -- IMHO

Oh, yeah, and Ron,
A diminished chord has enough dissonance that the exact temperament or lack thereof makes far less difference than with a pure major or minor triad. b5s b9s #9s, etc. are much more forgiving and allow us to fool ourselves into thinking we're playing in tune. I always shoot for good sounding octaves and fifths, everything else (namely the major and minor thirds) is somewhat of a crapshoot. This is not an exacting science, no matter how badly some want it to be so. again, IMVHO
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 18 June 2003 at 08:58 PM.]

jerry wallace · Post by **jerry wallace** » 18 Jun 2003 9:52 pm

Lee, I am researching a pickup that will make you sound in tune no matter what method you use..

It does look like it may be a while before I get all of the kinks ironed out.

so in the mean time just suit your own ears.

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Jerry Wallace-2001 Zum: D-10,8+6, "98 Zum: D-10,8+8,Nashville 1000,Session 500 ,Session 400 head only amp,Tubefex,ProfexII, Artesia, New Mexico
http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 19 Jun 2003 5:39 am

I tried to get my steel in tune once.
Never could get it right.

[This message was edited by Joe Smith on 19 June 2003 at 06:41 AM.]

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 19 Jun 2003 6:28 am

I play a ZUMSTEEL! It came already tuned from the manufacturer!

~~W.C.~~

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Jun 2003 6:32 am

It can slip, though, Wayne.
Secret is you gotta get it WELDED in place. Then you'll be set for life.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 19 Jun 2003 6:52 am

I agree with Larry Bell on all his points except the "diminished" part.

I find that ONLY when I tune ET do the diminished chords sound right to my ears. This aplies to augmenteds also.

I love JI for major and minor thirds and sixths, but for dims, aug's, 7ths and 9ths I opt for ET. So it's a constant battle.

If I was still playing a D-10, I would tune E9th to JI and C6 to ET because of the above.

carl

John Borchard · Post by **John Borchard** » 20 Jun 2003 12:54 pm

I've found you can't make a pedal steel guitar be in tune. It really has to WANT to be in tune.

That's why my steel and I have been in therapy together for over 30 years. We've come to understand one another much better and are much happier now that we accept each other's idiosyncrasies.

John Borchard

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 20 Jun 2003 2:38 pm

You guys are making me feel better already!

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Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 23 Jun 2003 7:02 am

Carl,
My point is twofold:
It is dissonant and most people are not as sensitive to beats in a b5 as they are a P5 or a Maj3. To some extent the ears are more tolerant of a mi3 being slightly off than they are a Maj3. My point is that it's never gonna be perfect (even the perfect 5th

) for many reasons I mentioned above. No matter how you TUNE it, it will change as you play it.

Second point is that diminished chords are most often used as passing chords -- an eighth or quarter note duration is common. Since tuning is a compromise (we may not agree on this point but I think it's irrefutable), I'd rather err on the side of a dissonant passing chord rather than a more noticeable scale tone. Just my preference. Sounds good to me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 23 Jun 2003 8:01 am

Minor thirds are wide by 15.6 cents. If you stack 2 of them, the resulting b5 interval is 31.2 cents sharp of ET, and it is not beatless. The beatless tri-tones are at 10/7 (617.5 cents) and at 16/11 (648.7 cents).

In theory, if you don't tune to pure JI, and instead temper your thirds at 10 cents instead of 15.6 cents (beatless), your diminished triad chords will end up sounding a little bit better. The beats in your major and minor triads would drive Carl nuts, though.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 23 June 2003 at 09:02 AM.]

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 23 Jun 2003 8:13 am

Both my Emmons and my Bigsby came pre-tuned.

I refuse to mess them up by twisting those knobbies on the left end; or right end, depending on which way you choose to look at it.