D vs C# String 2 RKR

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 26 Jun 2013 9:30 am

Does one have the advantage over the other? I don't have the half stop (other than by ear).

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 26 Jun 2013 10:08 am

If you can only have one, take the D. It is infinity more useful than the C#, IMO.

PS: I don't even have the C# drop on my guitar. That's how important I think it is. But I use the lower to D all the time, and I have several instruction videos on YouTube that cover some of it's uses.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 26 Jun 2013 11:32 am

I would have to agree with Paul on this, the D is the note you will use a lot, the C# hardly never.

If you do want it you might try timing the pulls so that the 9 string kicks in as the 2 string reaches the D note, giving you something of a poor man's feel stop...

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 26 Jun 2013 11:39 am

I use both. And if you do much minor key playing, C# becomes nearly indispensable. When I only had 1 choice, I'd retune D or C# between songs, depending on which the song needed.

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 26 Jun 2013 11:45 am

Thanks for the tips Guys, looks like it will be the D...

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 26 Jun 2013 12:09 pm

I use the C# more than the D.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 26 Jun 2013 12:33 pm

Lane: What pedals or levers do you use in combination with the C# lower when playing minor key songs? I may be missing something important. If it's the E lower lever, I'm kind-of stuck because I have that on the same knee as the D lower.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 26 Jun 2013 2:30 pm

Ouch. If I played your guitar, I'd spend a lot of time hitting the C# lever with my picking hand (picking 2, letting it ring as I reached down to grab the lever. In both the G#m pocket or C#m the D# lower comes in handy. Makes a gorgeous scalar move, especially in the G#m pocket (Es lowered).
EDIT: If I can find a backing track for "Summertime" or some other purty minor key song, I'll throw up a video, showing what I mean/how I think on these infernal contraptions.

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 27 Jun 2013 8:56 am

If I leave the string 2 lower as D, I assume I would not want to drop the 9 to C#?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 27 Jun 2013 9:21 am

The ninth string and the second string are a long way apart. The uses are totally independent from each other. I lower the second to D and the ninth to C# on the same knee lever, and it works just fine.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 27 Jun 2013 9:55 am

and having that 9th string lower allows you to stage them so that it engages when the 2nd string hits D, which gives you the feel half stop. crank up the return springs to make it more obvious. Play with the bellcrank holes to time the change perfectly..so you don't lose the D on the 2nd string

I avoided that 2nd string C# for a long time, but I just put it in and like it a lot - even just to have a 10-string major scale, with fast alternate picking on the high strings...

I haven't really figured out what else to do with it yet...
(thanks Lane for tip on G#m and C#m scale use, with LKR and A pedal, I guess)

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 27 Jun 2013 10:51 am

I find that lowering the 2nd string to C# in unison with the 5th string C# raise is especially useful with a fuzz pedal for the violin effect. Of course, this could also be achieved by slanting the bar.

Chuck Thompson · Post by **Chuck Thompson** » 27 Jun 2013 7:36 pm

Scott Im going to go outside the box and and suggest experimenting with tuning the 2nd string to D and lower to C#

You most likely have the D# by lowering the 4th string.
This way you have both D and C# available. Of course everything amounts to a trade off with pedal steel changes but it might be worth fooling around with to see if you like it.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Jun 2013 7:46 pm

That's what Terry Bethel does: says he got it from Crawford. He lowers it to C# with the same lever that drops 6. He raises it to D#, but I don't recall what else, if anything, shares that lever.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 27 Jun 2013 8:08 pm

In the Winnie Winston Manual of Style book, Terry Bethel's RKR (among the ideas he got from Crawford) raises the 2nd string D to D# and lowers the 9th string D to C#.

I read that when I was obsessively planning the copedent for the Super Pro I had on layaway in 1984, and after analyzing it I did the same thing with my RKR, and have never regretted it for an instant since.

Keith Currie · Post by **Keith Currie** » 27 Jun 2013 8:26 pm

Iam like Jack I would really miss the unison with the 5th string, and you should be able to get the feel stop working for you when it picks up the 9th string on the changer.

Tyler Hall · Post by **Tyler Hall** » 27 Jun 2013 9:26 pm

I more or less do the same thing as Terry, except I also raise the D to E. He lowers his 2nd to C# and 6th to F#. On his 2nd D to Eb I believe he lowers 9 to C#. Thats how mine is and I wouldn't even consider going back to "standard". The only thing I have that he doesn't is I raise my 2nd D to E along with my F#'s to G#. It makes the pull a tad stiffer, but there are LOTS of nice changes just in those 3 levers. Besides, I (like Mr. B) cannot stand half-stops on a knee lever.

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 28 Jun 2013 3:17 am

I have a stock GFI Student, which I received with the LKL and LKR. I just added the RKR which is why I was asking. I plan to add the RKL also. The copedent is below...

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 28 Jun 2013 10:15 am

Chuck Thompson wrote:Scott Im going to go outside the box and and suggest experimenting with tuning the 2nd string to D and lower to C#

You most likely have the D# by lowering the 4th string.
This way you have both D and C# available. Of course everything amounts to a trade off with pedal steel changes but it might be worth fooling around with to see if you like it.

There are some licks that I do (several times a night) that require me to hit the D# and then E quickly after it. I don't want the sound of the D# sliding to E in the lick. That D# on string 2 is almost as important to me as any other string. Often I will do the following and want the 2nd string to still be ringing when I hit the 4th string, shortly before I pull the bar back off string 2 to let the fingers behind my bar block string 2. I couldn't do that as effectively using the knee lever on string 4:

[tab]

1
2_________5
3
4____________5
5__5--5A
6
[/tab]

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 28 Jun 2013 11:57 am

The "standard" GFI factory setup on all guitars, except the student model is the RKL raises the First String F# to G#, raises the Second string from Eb to E and lowers the 6th string G# to F@.

That was the stock Carter setup, too. from a conversation with John Fabian.

Chuck Thompson · Post by **Chuck Thompson** » 28 Jun 2013 12:23 pm

Richard - youre absolutely right that any lick using the 2nd string D# is going to suffer if he tunes it to D (a lot Hal Rugg type licks). Like I said to Scott - everything has a trade off. He is working with a bit of a limit for available changes and it might be something that suits him without having to buy more parts or if the guitar is even capable of more changes.

From the looks of Scott's copedant from GFI, it seems that he has a feel stop D/C# by using the 9th string lower but im not sure that im reading it correctly. If that option is available maybe some guys familiar with that model can help him with that or maybe he can call GFI.

Scott Duckworth · Post by **Scott Duckworth** » 28 Jun 2013 2:12 pm

It does have a "feel stop" in that the 9 hits first.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 28 Jun 2013 2:34 pm

To me, the C# change is optional. I can always get that note on the 5th string if I need it. The D note is not redundant. I'd miss it a lot of it wasn't there.

Chuck Thompson · Post by **Chuck Thompson** » 28 Jun 2013 4:55 pm

Scott if you have the "feel" half stop then by all means tweak it out so you can have both the D and C#.

If youre having trouble getting it adjusted you might try calling GFI and see if they can talk you through adjusting it.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 28 Jun 2013 7:28 pm

You can't miss what you never had

I get a nice sound when I use the 5th string B to C# and then pick the 2nd string and then the knee lever that goes to C#. Also, on my U-12 the 9th string goes from B to D on the same knee lever so you can some interesting changes.

Lenny