Well, It happened again - Broken Carter part

[Richard Sinkler]

Tonight at a VERY important gig, I broke another one of those pathetic, crappy brass barbell looking pins that the pull rods hook around in the bell crank. I noticed at my gig last night, I tuned up at the beginning of the night and everything was OK. About 3 songs into the first set, I noticed my 6th string was only raising about 1/4 tone. I re-tuned and made it through the rest of the night. So tonight, I tune up, get through sound check and wait for start time. Start time comes and my B pedal again is not raising all the way to an A note. I'm thinking maybe my nylon tuning nut is stripping. I try to get the pedal in tune while we are playing (no stopping the band to tune up at this place). Finally, I have my tuning wrench on the nylon nut and go to tune it and I can pull the rod out through the hole in the changer finger. So I knew what had happened as it has happened once before. Break time. I take a flashlight and look under my guitar, and there is the rod hanging down and I can see one side of the brass pin still in the bell crank. Had to play the next set without the raise on the 6th string. Now, if I had carried the spare one's that I have, I might have been able to fix it at break. But, I evidently am not smart enough to do that. I have 5 brand new pins and some still good ones from changes I have removed. Tomorrow, I will fix the broken one and then look at all of the pins on the A,B and C pedals and replace any the are getting ready to break. If I have enough, I may also check the knee levers. Thank goodness I know my fretboard real well. I was able to get through the rest of the night and not sound too crappy. Only 2 one hour sets, but when you break a part about 2/3 the way into the first set, it makes for a long and miserable 2nd set.

Just had to vent a little.

[Howard Smith]

Richard is their anyway you could maybe explain how to change those. I'm a fairly new player...only been at it a year, and have a Carter D10. I have purchased about 10 of those brass pins, but have never changed one. Any advice? Or what to look for etc. I'm only playing the E9 neck as yet, and have five knee levers, and of course three pedals that effect that neck.

[Joey Ace]

Howard,
Changing them is easy, if you have the part and know where it goes.

I suggest you try it at home, with no pressure, to become familiar.

Just loosen a nylon tuner until it's almost off the rod.
With the guitar upside down, observe where the other end of that rod hooks. That's the "barbell".

Pull the rod in so it is off the barbell.
The barbell will probably fall out, or you can easily remove it. The rod was the only thing holding it in place.

Reverse the process to reassemble.
It's a 5 min job, if you are familiar with the construction.

[Roual Ranes]

I have a 1996 D10 and have never broken one..........gotta be something causing this.

[Richard Sinkler]

It's caused by the friction of the stainless steel rod rubbing on the brass pin. Just a case of a harder metal rubbing against a softer metal. It wears it down until it finally cuts all the through. There's nothing wrong with the guitar or how I play it that is causing it.

Mine is a 1999 D10 and have broken 2. I suggest anyone with an older Carter that gets a lot of use to check these on occasion. I have read other posts on here of people having them break. With enough use, I am am fairly sure many of the Carter users will have one break on them.

And I have rarely been able to get one of the things in a bellcrank in 5 minutes. Keep dropping them. If I didn't have to work around the rods to get them in, it would be easy. But often times, I have to use a pair of long nose pliers to try to get in between the rods and try to slip it into it's slot. Drop them very easily. I am not a big fan of having to remove rods to get to something to fix, but it sure does make life easier.

[Jimmy Gibson]

Do what I did ,I replaced all the crappy pull pins with the barrel type pull pins the same ones that Carter knee levers linkage use, never had any more problems.

And you don't have to get new rods because the hook on the pull rode is long enough to go through the hole in the barrel pull pins all you do is tighten the grub screw JOB DONE.NO MORE PROBLEMS.

Just to add I got all the pull pins from Carter when they were still making steels.



Jimmy.

[chris ivey]

no wonder everyone's selling their carters for so cheap..ha ha.

if this is the worst problem, it still makes carters the best used deal out there.

[Richard Sinkler]

Those pins are the only bad design they made on the Carter. My only other gripe was the choice of torx screws to hold the bell cranks on. The first time I tried to move a bellcrank, I used the torx driver that came with the guitar. The screw was so tight that it stripped both the wrench and the head of the screw almost immediately. I went to Ace Hdwe and got a torx driver with a handle like a regular screw driver, but I had the same problem with the screw head stripping because the screws were tightened too much. Have a few bellcranks in place that have no function any more, but I don't want to drill them out and chance getting metal shavings in the changer.

[Howard Smith]

Thanks for the advice and instructions on changing them. Seems like you could have some new pins made out of a harder metal as well. I haven't had this issue with my Carter yet, but I've always been a fan of preventative maintenance. I ordered a bottle of Teflon oil for pedal steel guitars from Williams Steel Guitars, and this stuff keeps my pedals and knee levers working very smoothly, they also had a really inexpensive bar and tuning wrench holder for around ten bucks that I love, that pressure clips on a leg. Real handy.

[Richard Sinkler]

It would be nice if the pins were stainless. I brought his up the last time I talked about the use of brass for the pins, and someone had a reason for not making them out of stainless.

[Pit Lenz]

Richard, I assume that you lube the pull rod/barbell connection regularly?
I use TriFlow which did a good job keeping down friction and wear at that point so far...

[Joe Naylor]

Michael Yahl @ www.psgparts.com

michael@psgparts.com his email

602-315-6732

Has a solution

Joe Naylor
www.steelseat.com

[Richard Sinkler]

Pit, obviously not often enough (don't remember ever doing it). Actually, Bud Carter said not oil there to me once, it wasn't needed. I think the oil wouldn't make a lot of difference. May just act like cutting or tapping oil.

Joe... What is the solution that Michael has? I asked him once if he would make Carter replacement parts, and he said no as long as Al Brisco still had a supply of parts on hand. In fact, I asked him specifically about these parts.

[Ron Pruter]

Jimmy, What's a grub screw? Is that one of those weird words you guys say like "G cramp" instead of "C clamp"? BTW, Your repair here, is a winner.

[Richard Sinkler]

Jimmy, What's a grub screw? Is that one of those weird words you guys say like "G cramp" instead of "C clamp"? BTW, Your repair here, is a winner.

Definition:

grub screw
n
(Engineering / Tools) a small headless screw having a slot cut for a screwdriver or a socket for a hexagon key and used to secure a sliding component in a determined position

In other words, a set screw.

[Jimmy Gibson]

Yup a grub screw is another name that we over the other side of the pond call a set screw thank you Richard for explaining that.


And they work absolutely great I had no more problems with pull pins breaking.




Jimmy.

[Michael Yahl]

Hmmmm....I think I've seen these somewhere before.

http://www.psgparts.com/Barrel-Locking- ... BL-250.htm

[Richard Sinkler]

Michael. What is the diameter of those. They need to be 3/16" for the slots in the Carter bell crank.

Jimmy... Did you use Michael's parts? I understand you to say you put the small length of the hook into the barrel. Sounds like a great solution.

I have to fix the one I have now with a new brass pin, but I may look into Michael's parts if they will fit and change all the ones on my E9 neck. I have so many knee levers and stuff that my C6th side is really congested and a real pain to get to most of the rods and bell cranks. I don't use that neck as often, so I think they are probably still OK. And if I break one on C6 at a gig, I can fake my way through any songs that I use C6 on by using the E9 neck. Can't do that when I break one on the E9 (too many songs that depend on signature E9 licks and the sound of the E9 neck).

[Michael Yahl]

Richard, the outside diameter is Ø.250. this is what MSA, Dekley, and some others use adn the they come in either a 5/16" or 3/8" length. I don't know how wide the Carter bell cranks are.

If the Carter is using a Ø.125 rod, then just do like Jimmy says and put the end of the hook through the Ø.1285 hole in the barrel. I guess if the rod is designed to be a slip fit on those barrels then don't tighten the set screw (grub! That cracks me up every time I hear it!).

In this configuration, it should have the same pulling effect as going around a barbell. the difference should be so small that I doubt anyone will notice but if they do, let me know.

You will however need to back off your tuning nuts as this will cause the radius on the rod to be further from the center line of the barrel.

[Richard Sinkler]

I believe the Carter rods are 3/32". Definitely not 1/8" (or there about). The brass pins and the holes in the bell cranks are 3/16". 1/4" wouldn't fit.

[Jimmy Gibson]

Hmmmm....I think I've seen these somewhere before.

http://www.psgparts.com/Barrel-Locking- ... BL-250.htm

If there was a problem with me using them I am very sorry and I have deleted them .



Thanks Jimmy

[Michael Yahl]

Oh no Jimmy, not a problem. Just kiddin' around. I don't mind at all.

Pictures are literally worth a thousand words. I often ask for pictures of customers guitars so that I know we're on the same page when discussing hardware.

In fact, anyone is welcome to use any pictures from my website. I try to photograph all of the items so that there's no question as to what the part is.

[Nick Reed]

I think Al Brisco is Canada is now handling all the parts for those geetars. You might contact him.

[John Swain]

I bought those barrels from Michael but they are definitely too big...If you call Al Briscoe he will sell you whatever you want..BTW I've played Carters for 13 years and never had a problem with wearing out a barbell..my main gigging guitar is a 2002 I bought new..but I have stripped the torx screws that hold the bellcranks tight....JS

[John Swain]

Sorry ,double post