Is anyone else taking the Gary Burton Improvisation class?

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 15 May 2013 5:48 pm

i was privileged to hear two selections from susan alcorn's new project of piazolla's music and to say i was was floored is an understatement
this was intonation/imagination/execution chops beyond what i have ever experienced previously on any instrument

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 15 May 2013 5:59 pm

ebb, I have to agree. She is peerless.

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 15 May 2013 6:10 pm

i have to also admit i signed up for the course but it overlapped with my big data and web ai course and i cant multitask very well
that being said i did enjoy his comments on stan getz being an ear player who would always wait to see where changes were going before jumping in
as a consumer of your course as well i will say that all roads lead to rome as a metaphor but those roads are as varied as our individual synapse wirings

rodger_mcbride · Post by **rodger_mcbride** » 16 May 2013 2:08 pm

I'm in it. Just uploaded lesson 2.
It's way over my head, but that's a good thing. Any illumination is good.
Mikes new book is a great help as is John Ely's HawaiianSteel site for the scale work..
My comments back were generally positive in pointing out my obvious ignorance, but the instrument seems to be well received.
Did Lesson 1 on steel, Lesson 2 on dobro and probably back to steel for Lesson 3.
I'm probably way off the beaten track, but don't really give a hoot. Any nugget of knowledge is good and worth the price.
Pardon my ignorance but the thing about the approach given here is I don't think the improvisation examples sounds very musical. I have a hard time imagining how Joaquin or even Buddy would play in the styles shown as examples.
I downloaded Gary's debut at 17 years old with Hank Garland and it's really much more to my liking.
Hopefully, the course will cover more of the "story-telling" techniques in the future lessons.
rodger

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 16 May 2013 9:04 pm

I've been taking it. Here's my Lesson 1 improv...

https://soundcloud.com/orvillej/assignment-1-5-6-13-01

I put myself more in that Stan Getz category. I'm a self taught player and so I don't relate to music by names of scales- I find the notes I want to hear by ear and apply them. I'm enjoying the process of exploring another way of understanding even tho I'm not sure it will ever displace the hear-play method I've banked on for 45 years.

PS In this song improv I wish, in retrospect, I would have studied the melody of the song a little better. I don't really know this song and a lot of my success in improvising is using the melody as my linchpin. I think some of my swings and misses would have come out better if I'd had a melody note to rub up against as I flew by!

rodger_mcbride · Post by **rodger_mcbride** » 17 May 2013 4:20 am

Love it Orville!

Here is my meager effort for Lesson 1;
http://snd.sc/10xoCkw

I listened to Ella Fitzgerald sing the song to get least a faint trace of the melody in my head.

The next assignment should be a challenge. Like you, I play mostly by ear and key off the melody. Not sure I even have a clue what the melody is in "500 Miles High".

rodger

(ps, the song up there is was written for another class on songwriting)

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 17 May 2013 5:47 am

Orville and Rodger: thanks for sharing.

Orville, very nice! While I think that adopting Gary's strategy of using specific scales in improvisation is not the complete answer, I think it will enhance your ability to create melodies even more harmonically interesting melodies almost automatically. I think it just puts those sounds in your head and gets you used to them, making it easier to identify them. Love that tone, by the way!

Rodger, my suggestion would be to pay careful attention to the harmony and tonality of the tune. While I think you have some good ideas going on there and pretty good feel, I would have liked to have heard you stick to the tune's harmony. I didn't hear the minor tonality there. This is a long, arduous learning process, and while I feel positive encouragement is always a good thing, I think it is even more important that we listen to ourselves with a critical ear in the hopes of improving. Keep at it and do your homework!

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 17 May 2013 6:54 am

Thanks, Mike. And I think it will be good thing to attach names to some of these sounds. Even tho I do use some of these scales anyway, the naming will help me identify them more easily in context.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 17 May 2013 6:58 am

Pay specific attention to all those juicy dominant scales (altered, lydian b7, symmetrical diminished)!

By the way, What Is This Thing Called Love was a tune that was rewritten as Subconscious-Lee, which is a classic by Lee Konitz. He wrote it as Lennie Tristano's student and Lennie dug it so much that they recorded it. It also was rewritten as Hot House and many other tunes.

Subconscious-Lee (I actually tabbed this out for C6 at some point, but I don't think I can play it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMw8t_Ahgbc

rodger_mcbride · Post by **rodger_mcbride** » 17 May 2013 7:09 am

Thanks Mike!

I appreciate the feedback and all the hard work you've done to provide us with the resources and inspiration to help us all become better players.

rodger

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 17 May 2013 8:29 am

i ran across this video by accident, didnt really know who this was, but IMO, its a great 25mins of insight into the workings of improv. i post it here because it ties into what i think Gary's first lesson was focused on.....then it parts ways with Garys approach - and for me, i have to agree with Mr Porters direction vs scales over chords that has been the direction of Gary's course (and the Berklee method in general). The whole chord scale pedagogy never worked for me, although i would never dismiss it - there are players who can assimilate that stuff with great results.
I've seen / read a lot on this subject and i'm in almost total agreement with his approach because its naturally the way we learn. Anyway, for those of you in the course, or others, its a great intro.
in the end, we should all strive to be ear players anyway.

i never understood that Miles Davis quote, "Learn all that stuff and then forget it" when i was younger....but i think i'm on to his reasoning now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UQU9MFSmzk

***BTW - this guy isnt some random YouTube character with an opinion - he's legit (i didnt know of him) - graduate of The Juilliard School, The Paris Conservatory and Manhattan School of Music. impressive resume too.
http://www.charlieportermusic.com/

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 17 May 2013 8:58 am

It's a little of all-of-the-above for me, although I am more interested in learning how to play freely and a little more atonally or "out", so a lot of it is pretty much based on what I am hearing internally, and to get to that point takes a ton of work. There is some science involved as well--I use Nicholas Slonimsky's Thesaurus and also am starting to pay more attention to 12-tone music. I am somewhere in between an ear player and a academic player--I dig both approaches.

There is a whole incredible scene of jazz and improvised music going on in NY that not many folks have heard of. Musicians like David Binney, John O'Gallagher, Steve Lehman, Andrew Rathbun, Owen Howard, Ben Monder, Jimmy Halperin, David Smith...these are people I really dig a lot and I have no idea where they're coming from.

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 21 May 2013 11:01 pm

Here's my Lesson 3 assignment-using selected scales over the changes on Chick Corea's 500 Miles High.

http://snd.sc/13H2QIM

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 22 May 2013 5:46 am

Very nice, Orville. Did you find it difficult to work within the prescribed scales?

I think once you get accustomed to the process of identifying chord/scale relationships and using that as source material for your melodies, slowly but surely you'll find your way back to your natural tendencies, only more informed. Knowledge is power!

Love the tone.

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 22 May 2013 6:37 am

No, I didn't find working with the scales too hard. The hardest part was, after working thru the chosen scales, to keep my improv from sounding like I'm playing scales rather than music.

For my practice, after learning the melody, I played thru the piece a few times (with the backing track) just outlining and arpeggiating the chords. Then I played thru a few times running up and down my scale selections. Then I blasted thru a few takes, trying to take the information and turn it into music. I think it turned out ok, but it was interesting to experience the conflict in my head as I tried to keep thinking about the new info as I played and my tendency to "not think, just play" fought to take over.

I'm enjoying the course and I think it will improve my playing in time as I assimilate some of the sounds into my own way of thinking.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 22 May 2013 7:42 am

Orville Johnson wrote:No, I didn't find working with the scales too hard. The hardest part was, after working thru the chosen scales, to keep my improv from sounding like I'm playing scales rather than music.

For my practice, after learning the melody, I played thru the piece a few times (with the backing track) just outlining and arpeggiating the chords. Then I played thru a few times running up and down my scale selections. Then I blasted thru a few takes, trying to take the information and turn it into music. I think it turned out ok, but it was interesting to experience the conflict in my head as I tried to keep thinking about the new info as I played and my tendency to "not think, just play" fought to take over.

I'm enjoying the course and I think it will improve my playing in time as I assimilate some of the sounds into my own way of thinking.

It's great to have an open mind. There's not a day goes by that I don't think about what I can do to improve as a musician.

I'm going through some extremely radical stuff right now (musically), but it has me so excited that I must think about it 10 hours/day.

rodger_mcbride · Post by **rodger_mcbride** » 22 May 2013 11:12 am

I never like to pass up an opportunity to embarrass myself publicly so.....
http://snd.sc/13IZRzB
-r

Sam Conomo · Post by **Sam Conomo** » 22 May 2013 3:52 pm

[quote="Jim Cohen"]I'm supposedly taking the course too but have been too swamped lately to do my homework. Either that or my dog ate it.... yeah that's the ticket, my dog ate it...

[/quote]

i blame my dog for everything ,way to go Jim
sam downunder or down&out.

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 27 May 2013 9:36 pm

Here's my week 4 assignment, Keith Jarret's Memories of Tomorrow. Really nice song. I think I'll learn it better when I have more time but here it is for now.

http://snd.sc/19im39U

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 30 May 2013 10:58 pm

Here are my Week 5 assignments.

Blues in F

http://snd.sc/179TT1B

Olhos de Gato by Carla Bley

http://snd.sc/11fo6YO

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 31 May 2013 5:06 am

Unfortunately, I've had to bail on this course. It's just too intensive for my life right now. I'd need the class to go at about 1/3 of this speed for me to have a chance of keeping up with it.

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 31 May 2013 12:43 pm

Very cool, Orville!

what happens after submission?
a peer critique? Mr. Gary Burton critiques?

Orville Johnson · Post by **Orville Johnson** » 31 May 2013 1:04 pm

It's a peer review, Ulrich. I've found them interesting. I am also obligated to review at least 5 other students selections. This is a 5 week free abbreviated version of a Berklee class that Burton teaches. I understand that there are 39000+ students signed up. The for-pay version is 12 weeks long and does include feedback on your work from Gary Burton himself. I don't know how much that costs but I'm sure the fees cut down the enrollment. I've really enjoyed taking it and I've definitely learned a few things!

Ulrich Sinn · Post by **Ulrich Sinn** » 31 May 2013 2:13 pm

Haha, that's a lot of jazz musicians! Better not quit my day job. If I had a real one...

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 31 May 2013 7:20 pm

Orville, congratulations on seeing the course through. I wish I could have, but I saw that it was more time-consuming with the peer reviews than I could really afford. Also, I am pretty familiar with this concept of improvising, although I would have enjoyed playing the last few tunes.

I enjoyed listening to your efforts and I think you will take a lot of this with you. I got the impression that of the 39,000+ students, very few were familiar with jazz. That is a good thing, that they took the opportunity to explore something as mysterious as jazz can be to a beginner, but I hope they realize the amount of work yet to be done. It certainly doesn't end there!