Question About Copedents

[Matthew Walton]

I recently got a "new" MSA steel (D-10 8/5), and it's been a while since I sold my last pedal (been playing non-pedal). Anyways, the copedent that it came with was kind of wonky, and since I haven't had much time to play it, I figured now would be the best time to change it before I start trying to re-learn it. Right now I'm looking at doing a straight Paul Franklin copedent from the b0b pages. A concern I have is that using pedal 4 on both strings would cause undue stress on the C6 strings, since you'd be stretching them even when not using them. Granted, I don't know how much I'll really be using them, but it is something I'm wondering about.

[chris ivey]

i'd say try it. you'll find out soon enough whether you want to keep it. if not, change it. it can be a good learning experience to have some interesting mystery stuff.

[Matthew Walton]

Okay, so now I'm trying to figure out what to do with LKV. I see that most copedents have the E9 strings 5 and 10 lower by a half-step, but the Franklin copedent lowers string 6 by two steps. It looks like Franklin's option is just to get a unique sound, since it just lowers the 3 down to a 1. What does the first option allow you to do?

[Lane Gray]

It won't hurt the strings, but it WILL make the pedal noticeably stiffer.
To combat this, you can do the following:
1) check all of your pedals, put the one with the best-centered upper hole in #4 (skipping this step can demolish the hole, fortunately that doesn't ruin the pedal.
2) move the pedal rod fitting to the upper hole. Chances are the fitting will bottom out on the set screw that holds the pedal on the axle. Either remove some length of the fitting (hacksaw, Dremel or grinder) or shim it up with washers. If it doesn't clamp against the pedal, it'll break off in a week or so.
This changes the leverage so the pedal will travel farther, but easier.
The biggest use of dropping the Bs is making the Third of the chord two frets up. But it also has a handful of other uses. I'll tab out a sample phrase or two that MIMIC that drop, and you'll see what I mean

[Lane Gray]

BTW, both these are sustained all the way through, not struck each time. I tried to fix the wonky justification.
Just disregard the first digit in the lower phrase, I assumed it'd be obvious that it means strings 5&8, not 15&18

[Matthew Walton]

Interesting. I think I'm going to go with LKV dropping G# for now. I can always play around with it though! I'm hoping I can just reuse most if not all of the current pull rods, but I'm sure I'll have to get at least one new piece. What exactly is used for that? I assume it's just some sort of steel rod that I can pick up at a home center, assuming one has the threading skills (which I do). For that matter, I might have to get more of the little fittings. Are those still made, or is it something I have to scour eBay for?

[Donny Hinson]

It's really a non-issue, since the right and left levers are usually operating on both necks. My newest guitar has 2 floor pedals (4&5) that do double-duty, and the fact that the pulls are different or harder doesn't phase me. (I actually consider it an advantage!)

[Lane Gray]

Donny, I think most folks have separate left knees for E9 and C6th. Unless you have an MSA Classic, the standard left knee cluster sits too far to the left to hit P8 reasonably easily.
The MSA placement poses awkwardness only at pedals 1 and 10 (my next guitar, a loaded Unified, will feature the MSA Classic placement, but I'm a goofball)

[Matthew Walton]

So here's my copedent. It's more or less Paul Franklin's copedent, but adapted to eight pedals and only one double-stop at my disposal.
I would very much appreciate feedback, since I'm really just kind of looking at this from a more or less (probably overly) logical viewpoint. I don't have an intimate enough understanding of the instrument (yet) to be able to say "Given these differences, this makes the most sense musically."

E9 neck:


C6 neck:


I see that using LKL for what would usually be pedal 8 frees you up to do something else with it. I went with Franklin's P9 just on the assumption that his P5 combines with other pedals, so it wouldn't make sense to try having it at all. But again, I really don't have any idea.

[Donny Hinson]

Donny, I think most folks have separate left knees for E9 and C6th. Unless you have an MSA Classic, the standard left knee cluster sits too far to the left to hit P8 reasonably easily.

Really Lane, I wasn't aware "most" players did that. I know that double-duty left levers are somewhat difficult, especially for players using the Emmonms setup. This is why (even back in the '60s!) I had separate left levers for each neck. But, to not have both right levers operating on both necks is just plain foolish, IMHO. I think that most builders put the left levers so far to the left just to accomodate the majority of players, who choose to use the Emmons setup (which, I do believe, is ergonomically inferior to the Day setup).

[Matthew Walton]

So last night I made another excel spreadsheet and did some calculations to help me figure out what I'll need to have to change it. If I did my calculations right, it's going to cost over $200.
When I was looking over the copedent I made up, I realized that I messed up the knee levers on the C6 neck, so here's the corrected version (still looking for comments/suggestions):

The other issue I ran into occurs on string 4. The problem is that there are three different ways to raise the string, but my MSA only has two holes per raise or lower. So obviously my question is: Which one should I remove? I don't see an obvious way to use one pedal/knee lever to work for both P4 and P7, unless I set LKV up to raise 4 up a step. That would make me have to use LKV any time I want to press P4 or P7 though, and that just seems silly.
Thoughts?

[b0b]

I'd leave off all of the C6th changes on P4. With 3 pulls on the E9th side, it'll be pretty stiff already. You really don't need all of that P4 stuff on C6th. A lot of guys just disconnect P4 on the C6th to make the E9th P4 work smoothly.

I think it will cost more than $200 to add two knee levers for C6th.

[Matthew Walton]

I'd leave off all of the C6th changes on P4. With 3 pulls on the E9th side, it'll be pretty stiff already. You really don't need all of that P4 stuff on C6th. A lot of guys just disconnect P4 on the C6th to make the E9th P4 work smoothly.

Interesting, really? Looking at Paul Franklin's copedent was the first time I've ever heard of using P4 on the E9 neck. I thought it was much more common to use P4 with the C6 neck.

I think it will cost more than $200 to add two knee levers for C6th.

I already have five knee levers, so as far as I can tell, it's just a matter of getting a whole lot of pulls (about 13 at last count) and other hardware. Why do you say it will cost more?

[b0b]

The guitar will move sideways if you put that many pulls on the knee levers, because you'll have to push them so hard. Most people add additional LKL and RKL levers in the middle of the guitar for the C6th neck.

As for the P4 issue, keep in mind that Paul has a state-of-the-art guitar with a master mechanic on speed dial. There is a fair amount of mechanical trickery going on under the hood - things that would be difficult if not impossible to do with an old MSA.

The standard P4 raises both A strings to B on C6th. To add Paul's P4 E9th changes, many players sacrifice their C6th P4 as it makes the pedal too stiff to use. I think Paul's guitar has helper springs. The bell cranks on a Franklin are more versatile (have more leverage points) than an original MSA, and of course the changer is more versatile as well.

If I were you, I'd concentrate on what I need to play my music instead of trying to implement one of the most advanced modern copedents on an antique mechanism. Buddy Emmons' C6th is a lot simpler, and it never held him back.

Myself, I never put more than 3 pulls on any pedal or lever. I have a hard time getting any expression out of a pedal with 3 pulls, but some of the standard C6th changes require them.

[Lane Gray]

There's an L-shaped gizmo that Tom Bradshaw designed that can shift a Change to its neighbor (either the same string's lower can pull a raise/vice versa, or a string can donate its unused raise to its neighbor's raise).

If you need more, you can use Sho-Bud rods and barrels: you can put as many as will fit.

I agree on not putting both Franklin P4 on both necks. Gonna be too stiff.
I'm busy putting 10 and 7 on a single 12 double raise double lower. Not easy. Two strings have 4 raises.
I'd recommend for the knees adding two farther to the left for the E9th neck. For LKR, I like Bruce Zumsteg's lever and bracket. It doesn't mount to the rail, and the bracket contains the reverser.

Michael Yahl at www.psgparts.com makes everything your MSA needs.

[b0b]

Here's a compromise that gives you all of the standard C6th:



The P4 pedal is split with a half-stop on LKR (which already has the half-stop because of E9th). This gives you both the Bb and B notes on the 4th string, and you don't have to have 3 raises on that string.

[Matthew Walton]

I'm not completely set on any Franklin changes in particular. I wasn't happy with the current copedent, so I emailed a friend asking his opinion, and he recommended looking up the copedents of the greats. After seeing the different musicians listed, my thought process more or less went like "I like Dire Straits, Paul Franklin played with Dire Straits, he played really cool stuff, I'll use his."
That definitely makes sense about the guitar moving; I never even thought about that, even though it's constantly in my mind when I try to use them.
Lane, why do you suggest that? Is it just a matter of better alignment, so to speak? Is it an issue that I could avoid by making the space between LKL and LKR a little wider?
b0b, that's interesting, but I'm not sure the C6 LKR half-stop will work. If I understand the mechanics of it correctly, it only works for one string; in this case the E9 2nd string. I suppose it would be technically possible to tune the half-stop by position of the bell crank, but not realistically.

[John Alexander]

The P4 with changes to six different strings on the C6 neck is unusual. Any ideas what it is used for?

[b0b]

It's worth noting that this chart was made in 1997. Paul's copedent may have changed since then. I know mine has!



His P4 and P5 changes are a complete mystery to me. I imagine he has a few cool licks that use them, but I don't know which ones they are. Maybe someone could point them out in this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuGndb8VeGw

[b0b]

b0b, that's interesting, but I'm not sure the C6 LKR half-stop will work. If I understand the mechanics of it correctly, it only works for one string; in this case the E9 2nd string. I suppose it would be technically possible to tune the half-stop by position of the bell crank, but not realistically.

You're probably right. I only added it for completeness. For what it's worth (not much), I don't have the P4 changes at all on my guitar. I find that I miss having the low change, but don't miss the high one. There are two other ways to get that B note (the knee lever and P7).

[Lane Gray]

I recommended splitting up the knee levers because on an MSA,
1: if you put three pulls, the knees start getting stiff and can move or torque the guitar: to make mine not move the guitar, I had to make the throw crazy long.
2: the standard placement feels uncomfortable when using pedals 1-3, but fine for 4-9.
I agree about the half stop not being tunable for both strings, but:
by monkeying around with leverage, you could make them coincide pretty closely (my Unified tuning depends on a half stop or;
you could use the stop to tell you you're close and use your ear to tune it, most of the time, a 7th sounds about as good bending into pitch as hitting square on.

[John Alexander]

His P4 and P5 changes are a complete mystery to me.

I couldn't tell from the video. I suppose the close intervals of the pentatonic scales in P5 and strings 2-6 of P4 would make some single note lines easier to play with a minimum of bar movement. The lowest 4 strings and the jump from Bb to F# on P4 I don't get at all.

[Larry Bell]

Last time I saw Paul his Franklin had either 8 or 9 levers on it. Putting the E9 and C6 left and right lever changes together on the same 5 levers is dicey at best.

The old MSA mechanism is not as easy to stack up all those changes as a Franklin. If you really know why you need all those non-standard C6 changes that very few other than Paul ever use, go for it. You'll find little or no instructional material that addresses it.

I'd recommend you look at Buddy Emmons' C6 changes and, if you add a couple of C6 levers, you can have the 5 pedals and 4 levers (one or both A and C strings up and down a half step) that Buddy uses. THOSE ARE DEFINITELY USEFUL and better documented in the instructional literature. If you don't want to add C6 levers, it's pretty standard to lower 3 from C to B one one right knee lever and A to Bb on the other. When you start adding C6 changes to the standard E9 left knee levers it will impact your comfort on E9.

Just my opinion. Avoid obsessing over it, put something on it you can understand and then play it. Also realize that the VAST majority of stuff Paul played with Dire Straits was on E9.

[Matthew Walton]

Here's the latest copedent (Buddy Emmons).


What I realized though is that I still have the problem of three raises going to one string. Lane, I might have to suck it up and buy that gizmo you were talking about. I'm not exactly sure how much this latest version will cost, I'm about to figure that out. Obviously the gizmo will raise that up quite a bit.

[Lane Gray]

The gizmo is like 6 bucks. I plan on doing a video on installing them. I've done a few and am getting better at it.