Carter Guitar prices

Dave Simonis · Post by **Dave Simonis** » 13 Apr 2013 11:40 am

I can't believe the great price Carter D-10's have sold for lately here. I owned a Carter, great guitar as others testify to. Wondering if this is what people think they are worth as a brand lately or are Carter D10's in less demand as compared to other D10 brands...and thus not as sought after? Carter S10's are going for almost the same price.

I am still looking for an older S10 GFI (ultra style)...but now might consider picking up a Carter D10 (or S10) if tempted further by recent asking prices.

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 13 Apr 2013 5:37 pm

I've noticed the same thing. Carter has sort of an 'econo-steel' stigma although anyone who has played one for a few years knows they are a quality instrument. Relative to most other brands they were mass produced and there are a lot of them around even if they weren't in production too many years. I won't be hasty to part with mine at a bargain basement price. Down the road a few years their value might head north again. Mine is a 2000 and I've played it a lot but it shows little sign of wear after 13 years.

Ted Nesbitt · Post by **Ted Nesbitt** » 14 Apr 2013 4:01 am

I have 2 Carter d10s. The first one is a Carter "1000"
It was built in 2003 to celebrate the building of 1000 Carter Pro guitars. Custom Shop body by Mark Giles,cabinet built with 700 year old lumber, mother-of-pearl inlays, all hardware highly polished.Natural lacquer finish... 8 + 8
Second one is a D10 "LE" Model. Red lacquer finish with M-O-P inlays. Custom body by Mark Giles. 8+7
Premium necks ... all hardware highly polished. Both guitars are fitted with BL 710 p/ups.
I just dont understand why these great guitars sell for such low prices. The man who designed these guitars is a legend in his time, and still involved in steel guitar building and design. Carter guitars play great, sound great,stay in tune so well. They are definitely not a "Woolworths" guitar, or a budget
instrument. They were built to a very high standard, and as a steel guitar dealer in Ireland, I rate them very high.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 14 Apr 2013 4:15 am

Maybe the Carter guitars - and the older MSAs for that fact - don't hold their value quite as much as many other steels because so many were built.

Supply and demand plays a big part in the second hand market. Carters certainly provide a lot of bang for the buck.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 14 Apr 2013 4:57 am

I think there is also a bit of "artisanal snobbery" going on. So many guitars are made by one and two man operations, and some folks dislike guitars made by manufacturing techniques designed to make the assembly process simpler or cheaper.
Because Bud Carter has spent much of his life trying to do just that, he's hailed as a genius while his kids get short shrift.
It's kind of like the people who insist on drinking microbrews, and then stick to the pale lagers

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 14 Apr 2013 5:32 am

Nothing wrong with mass production or efficient production lines. Unless you get in the realms of Sho~Bud who used inferior mass manufacturing techniques and materials to produce some of their parts. Bud Carter appears never to have gone down that route.

There must be many relative newbies who have been grateful to upgrade to an affordable but quality instrument in the shape of Carter or MSA.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 14 Apr 2013 5:38 am

The fact that the production of Carters has ceased must be pushing prices downwards to some extent. No more spare parts (once Al Brisco's stock is sold out) means fewer prospective buyers, as with any product that hasn't reached vintage/classic status.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 14 Apr 2013 5:40 am

Agreed. But there does seem a bias against quantity that looks greater than simple supply/demand.

Dave Simonis · Post by **Dave Simonis** » 14 Apr 2013 6:27 am

Lane I agree - I think there are some thoughts that a massed produced guitar doesn't have the individual/original, designer/builder's, specific attention...thus creating more value in small shops. I can't deny that I am guilty of that logic with say mandolins. Carter guitars though have a consistent tone though. As many as there may have been produced (does anyone know how many?), they don't seem to take over the classified ads here or on Ebay. There's a few out there right now that are Carter's to want...I'll add the Carter 1000, any of the premium necks - though I haven't heard they sound different...just being a bit unique. And of course the Carter at the top of the list for me - b0b's Carter.

I love my Desert Rose, but regret selling my Carter...I guess now may be the time to get one back.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 14 Apr 2013 8:31 am

Per Berner wrote:The fact that the production of Carters has ceased must be pushing prices downwards to some extent. No more spare parts (once Al Brisco's stock is sold out) means fewer prospective buyers, as with any product that hasn't reached vintage/classic status.

If the situation was ever to be that Al Brisco sold out of his Carter spares inventory (and I doubt that will happen in the next 10 years), there are folks around like Michael Yahl who would only be too pleased to jump in and manufacture any shortfall if there was a market for it.

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 14 Apr 2013 1:08 pm

Im hearing two very different things here.
1. Al brisco is out of Carter parts
2. Al Brisco has enough parts for the next ten years

Am I missing something ?
Can someone (perhaps Al Brisco)offer some clarity ?

Steve Spitz · Post by **Steve Spitz** » 14 Apr 2013 1:18 pm

I may have posted too quickly, Pers post stated "when" Al runs out.....

it would be nice to hear from Al on this.

Randy Pettit · Post by **Randy Pettit** » 14 Apr 2013 2:11 pm

I agree with Per, there's a finite supply of Carters out there and maybe there's some likely continued appreciation by the steel guitar community of their quality, mechanics, and legacy of its legendary designer, Bud Carter. Carter guitars were never "mass produced", they were "efficiently produced". This was not a hobby or side business, as both the late John Fabian and Bud made their primary living building and selling steel guitars, so John designed a business model that was vertically very efficient. Because of this efficiency, they were able to build A LOT of guitars. A typical day at the Carter "factory" (about 800 SF) involved John talking to customers on his wireless headset phone, and Bud assembling a guitar on his bench with a tv soap opera playing in the background. Carter pro model steels were built one at a time by Bud, sometimes by John. The Carter Starter models may be closer to being "mass produced", although again, "mass" is a relative term. Compared to Fender, Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Carter was a mom and pop operation - and I mean that with all due respect to Bud and John.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 14 Apr 2013 6:41 pm

I have a carter u-12 for several years before John passed. He and Ann were very helpful and this guitar came in exactly as ordered and is a keeper. If you need a part there are people or machinists that can get you what you need....imo

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 14 Apr 2013 9:57 pm

I agree, Len – there's probably not a single part on a Carter that couldn't be replicated by a competent machinist. But it's enough to put some people off. That's why obsolescence usually reduces value of any product or brand. Who will buy a used Saturn or Saab, when there are similar and safer bets around? For them to take the plunge, the price has to be attractive.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 14 Apr 2013 10:12 pm

Parts are readily available from Steel Guitar Canada. Carter pedal steels seem to be consistently undervalued. I don't know why, as they are excellent instruments.

Niels Andrews · Post by **Niels Andrews** » 15 Apr 2013 1:30 am

I would like to point out the often maligned Carter Starter. I bought mine got started and then sold it for more than I paid for it, and know the buyer I sold it too recently sold it for what he paid. They are simple and cheaply built guitars that hold their value and have started more players than probably all other combined. Also on the bottom of one of my MSA's it says built by Bud Carter.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Apr 2013 3:31 am

just for clarity..PRO Carter guitars were not mass produced, they were each assembled by John and Bud..

The word CHEAP is not appropriate..it should be efficient cost and operating controls...Cheap implies something very different...Order ONE part from a machine shop..it's very expensive..Order 1000 parts and the cost is WAY down for each piece.....that's not to be confused with cheap...I have read right here on this forum thru the years that Carters used cheap parts..well..Cheap in the cost sense? Yes....Cheap in quality ? No...

The parts were ordered in large lots from machine shops making them available for the build process...this was the main process difference, parts were ordered in large lots before ORDERS...when a Steel was ordered parts were already on hand for the build thus allowing for the 30 to 45 day turn around time. The exception would be the special order wood bodies with custom finish...but even then, John was looking forward and built several guitars that he KNEW would sell....many of us know this because we saw them in St Louis !

Are the prices on a FEW too low ? YES...Not sure I can explain that..I too have seen a few D10's offered way below the normal market value..only the seller can explain that...

I am reminded that my friend John would call me in the late afternoons and while talking , his dang electric screwdriver was in use making it hard for me to hear him talk..he was building someone's new Steel !

RIP my friend John Fabian...

t

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 15 Apr 2013 4:03 am

Just for the sake of clarity, I didn't say that Carter guitars were mass produced. What I said was that relative to most other brands they were mass produced. It was a manner of speaking. It goes without saying that there were never Carter guitars rolling off assembly line conveyor belts. But relative to Zumsteel, for example, where you pay $1000 deposit to get on a very long waiting list, you could walk into Al Brisco's store and pick from several brand new Carters on the showroom floor. In that sense of the word they were mass produced. A lot were produced in a short time and they were readily available.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 15 Apr 2013 4:27 am

Tony, I think it's perception vs. fact. The perception that sensible practices reducing both cost and time somehow reduce value.
I like the way John Simonis put it

I think there are some thoughts that a massed produced guitar doesn't have the individual/original, designer/builder's, specific attention...thus creating more value in small shops.

It doesn't reduce quality, but there's a small-shop bias. Don't ask me what the answer is.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Apr 2013 4:40 am

@ Zane..agreed ! I have read crazy statements like.." Brand X is made by hand and that's the quality difference " ...well, who do they think is making the machined parts ?

I love the small shop's, it's an iconic business...we have a very small family business, basically a one man (woman) show, she does it all..I help when I can...

BUT..when she is out of town or on vacation , or sick..or doing something else, or at the store..guess who is NOT manufacturing product...

Regardless of perception or definition... Carter guitars were built one at a time by TWO people..thus making it TWO at a time..The reason they could build guitars in a timely fashion , which by the way was one of Johns key business objectives, was that they had PARTS on hand...

Fords were mass produced....

Corvettes are mass produced and still the best value/quality sports car dollar to performance ratio in the world...

Steel guitars are built one at a time by the same person.

t

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 15 Apr 2013 6:47 am

Obviously I would have been well advised to say that Carter guitars were prolifically produced rather than 'mass' produced. ...only Monday morning and already I have the semantics police on my tail.
At any rate, they do seem to be selling at low prices which is a great opportunity for buyers and unfortunate for sellers.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 15 Apr 2013 7:03 am

Bill Miller wrote:...only Monday morning and already I have the semantics police on my tail.

There are no semantics Police !

But there are many here who believe or were under the impression that the manufacturing of PRO Carter Guitars was not the same as brand X...Basically two employees assembling Steel guitars by hand rather than perhaps one. It is true however that two people building may produce twice as much as ONE person building , but that's not always true

...!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 15 Apr 2013 7:34 am

When I worked for Mesa Boogie, I wired four amps at a time. It was more efficient than wiring one. I get the impression that Carter Starters were made in a similar way. I'm not sure if that's "mass produced" or not, and I don't really care. What's important to me and to customers is that they were "assembled by hand in the USA".

As for the Carter pro models, my understanding is that they were assembled one at a time by two master craftsmen (Bud and John). Parts were outsourced for efficiency. Anyone who has examined the components of a Carter would have a hard time finding defects. They are precision machines!

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 15 Apr 2013 8:43 am

Interesting post b0b. I visited the Gibson factory in Memphis (or was it Nashville) last year, and that was what I call mass production / conveyor belt techniques. In comparison, pedal steel guitars are all custom shop instruments, all being different to anything else in the manufacturer's range.

The fact is that pedal steels, even manufactured at the rate that Carter were knocking them out at, are only produced in tiny numbers compared to 6 string electrics or amps.

What can wear out on a Carter? Nothing that can't be replaced.

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