How many watts do we need?

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 23 Feb 2013 4:05 am

The Peavey session and LTD 400 have 200 watts, which I always believes was standard for steel. But now we have the 112m and the Roland Cube XL, with 80 watts, and the Lil Walter and Milkman, with 50.

I'm puzzled. How many do we need?

Ray McCarthy · Post by **Ray McCarthy** » 23 Feb 2013 4:22 am

Most of the gigs we do now-(older guys playing for older folks) are smaller and quieter than gigs used to be. I have both of those amps and never had a problem with volume with either one.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 23 Feb 2013 5:15 am

Many years ago I attended a steel show where David Wright was in the Sierra room playing through two little computor speakers. I often think about that and the nice sound he had. Especially when I was hauling a hernia creating amp to a gig the size of my living room. Go figure?

Lenny

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 23 Feb 2013 5:42 am

What puzzled me when I first got a pre-amp and tried to run it in front of a Session 400 or Nash 112.
I lost all this volume and head room bypassing the amps built in pre-amp..
Fighting and trying everything. In and out of numerous amp repair shops.
Finally I broke down and got two D-130 15 inch speaker boxs and started trying different power amps.
First was a Peavey 260 watt monitor amp I had. It was so weak compared to a 200 watt or 80 watt Peavey it was ridiculous.
Next was a 600 watt range and the 112 was louder and cleaner than the 600 watts.
I also had a 30 watt Fox Bassman that performed better.
Finally I tried a Stewart World 1.2 and problem solved.
Now the conclusion is that it takes 1200 watts to equal or better a Peavey steel amp with out break up at high volume? $:\$
Building this rack system ended up taking a couple of years using several high end pre-amps and chasing a ground hum forever.
A great source of aggravation for me that I do not recommend even though I have a very nice rack system now.
The rack system has a much better quality sound at lower volumes.
And yes... some of the bands I play with are very loud bands which is another source of aggravation...
Glad I got that off my chest... now what were we talking about? Ha! $:\$

John Phinney · Post by **John Phinney** » 23 Feb 2013 9:16 am

How many watts do we need?

Depends on the band/gig in my experience.

I've played a Roland Cube 30X at many a small bar gig with no problem being heard. This with a band that had a lead guitar player that knew to leave me space so I wouldn't be fighting with him over bandwidth or accompanying a singer songwriter playing an acoustic.

I've also been blown out and overpowered by a drummer when running a PODxt through a 200w PA or using my NV400, but he was one of those players that played louder the louder you turned up your amp. We nicknamed that drummer Tommy Lee Jr. That was not a pleasant experience for my eardrums.

My 100w SF Super Six is plenty big enough to run for med sized gigs where the amp isn't mic'd, but if the lead guitarist isn't on the same page there can still be problems being heard. Even the 200watt NV400 has a hard time overpowering a showy "play in every open spot" lead guitarist. For that situation I would prefer a taser to more wattage.

David Higginbotham · Post by **David Higginbotham** » 23 Feb 2013 9:27 am

I've also been blown out and overpowered by a drummer

I call them "lead drummers and lead bass players" and when it's like that I quickly decide it's not the band for me!

Dave

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 23 Feb 2013 9:36 am

Little Walter amps are tube amps...

Watts is not about how loud we play

Total power is about how clean we want to play at required gig levels.

I hate that we always think watts is about playing loud...

Twin Reverbs are 85 watts...then a supposed 100 watts...

PV Steel amps far exceed this..not for volume but clarity at required stage levels.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 23 Feb 2013 9:47 am

Not all watts are created equal, and not all playing situations are the same.

I kept a couple of 'set on stun' steel guitar amps, but I rarely need them. Most times I use my '57 tweed Fender 4x10 Bassman, or a silverface Deluxe Reverb for a lower-volume gig. Roughly 40 or 20 clean tube watts respectively that can be pushed for more if I don't mind a little mild power-tube overdrive. The Nashville 112 at 80 solid-state watts cuts most anything else, since I'm just not gonna tolerate 120db stage volumes that set my ears to ringing anymore. That's the only reason I would really need a 200-300 watt amp. I guess if I was working a real large stage with a fairly loud band it would come in handy. But most smaller rooms are really cracking down hard on volume levels, around here anyway.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 23 Feb 2013 10:17 am

Tube watts and solid-state watts have always been different in practical use, to my ears....tube watts being much louder in perception....my GK MB-200 sure doesn't feel louder than my 85 watt Milkman Pedal Steel Amp, in fact, the Milkman sounds better at high volume. Not sure if it is just clean power, or harmonic content, or EQ, or what...

As Tim of Milkman tells me, it is all about the bass, which eats a lot of power....he voices his amps specifically to pump out the bass while still sounding right in the mids and highs....I think that is why a lot of people use bass amps, high power available in the low frequencies...

I expect that Tim or Dave G or one of those guys who really know the answers to this stuff will jump in here...

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 23 Feb 2013 10:17 am

Tony Prior wrote:
Watts is not about how loud we play

Total power is about how clean we want to play at required gig levels.

I hate that we always think watts is about playing loud...

Precisely. Which is why the session and LTD 400s were 200 watts. For clarity and headroom. (And conversely, why some high end rock guitar amps that are designed to distort have as little as 15.)

My question is how many watts to be need in order to sustain that same kind of clarity?

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 23 Feb 2013 10:28 am

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Feb 2013 10:31 am

I feel it really depends on what sound you're looking for. If you like Mooney and Brumley, 40-50 watts is plenty! But if you dig Chalker or Big Jim Murphy, you might need a couple of hundred. (Rarely do most players with 200-ewatt amps use more than 30-50 watts, and that's a fact.)

As a lot of us realize, amps are rated with every control set at maximum. But, when you adjust the tone controls DOWN to get the sound you want, a lot of the power is also gone. In addition, the speaker cabinet design is a big factor. A sealed cabinet amp like a Bassman sounds many times louder than its watts, and that's because it several times as efficient as a speaker in a little open box. (Most speakers in open cabinets have a terrible efficiency rating, often less than 5%.) It's a very complex area, and rarely do many players agree on what is necessary as a bare minimum. A lot depends on the instrument, too. A B/F Twin is overpowering for lead guitar, but barely acceptable for pedal steel in a live (unmiked) situation.

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 23 Feb 2013 10:47 am

Most Live mixes don't want a lot of Wash off the stage. Stage Volume from an amp has a 'Shotgun effect' and makes it a nightmare for a crispy mix...Low volume/miked amp is a lot crispier to the listener than a cranking 200 watts at 3/4 volume with high decibel capability. Very few players recognise this because they cant stand out front and listen whilst they play.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 23 Feb 2013 10:50 am

Donny Hinson wrote:I feel it really depends on what sound you're looking for. If you like Mooney and Brumley, 40-50 watts is plenty! But if you dig Chalker or Big Jim Murphy, you might need a couple of hundred. (Rarely do most players with 200-ewatt amps use more than 30-50 watts, and that's a fact.)

As a lot of us realize, amps are rated with every control set at maximum. But, when you adjust the tone controls DOWN to get the sound you want, a lot of the power is also gone. In addition, the speaker cabinet design is a big factor. A sealed cabinet amp like a Bassman sounds many times louder than its watts, and that's because it several times as efficient as a speaker in a little open box. (Most speakers in open cabinets have a terrible efficiency rating, often less than 5%.) It's a very complex area, and rarely do many players agree on what is necessary as a bare minimum. A lot depends on the instrument, too. A B/F Twin is overpowering for lead guitar, but barely acceptable for pedal steel in a live (unmiked) situation.

I've mentioned before that my current rig is a pair of ZT Club amps, with a Sarno Black Box and a POD XT to sweeten and tweak the tone. These little amps put out 200 watts apiece, and when I crank them up, they are loud enough to make my ears hurt. But I set the gain controls barely above zero, and use only a small fraction of that power, probably only 35-50 watts as Donny said.

I believe that having all that power means that I have enough headroom to get a clean undistorted sound at any reasonable volume. Isn't that what we want?

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 23 Feb 2013 11:04 am

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 23 Feb 2013 11:11 am

Mike Perlowin wrote: and the Lil Walter and Milkman, with 50.

I'm puzzled. How many do we need?

50 is a lot - but for a big time steel gig I would use my 85W amp.

I do the majority of my gigs with my 20W though and I still get told to turn down.

We live in good times - most clubs and venues have a good sound system now. I played at a 500 seat theatre a few weeks back with a 5W amp and I could hear that little sucker bouncing off the walls.

I like a higher wattage amp at a low volume for steel - my 85W steel amp can sound really balanced and good when quiet, but I find that when the gig is quiet, the stage is either small or the setup is minimal. Thats where the low power amps really come in handy.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 23 Feb 2013 11:19 am

Dickey, all the small clubs that I played in over the years did not have P.A.s and soundmen. The band had to bring it's own P.A., which was usually just for the vocalists. I always had to set my amp or amps when I used 2, to be loud enough to be heard by themselves without a PA or monitoring system.

The other 2 musicians in the chamber music trio I played in both played unamplified instruments, and we played in places where there either was no PA or, if there was one, it was not used. So again, I had to adjust the volume of the amp way down so as not to drown out the viola and cello.

I don't know how many of the 400 watts I have at my disposal were actually being used at last month's concert. But I got a very clean, undistorted sound.

Bill L. Wilson · Post by **Bill L. Wilson** » 23 Feb 2013 11:24 am

I always said, in my own band, if you can hear the vocals, the guitars ain't loud enough. And if you ever heard my vocals, you would say, "son, crank that Marshall stack up to 11! " Personally, I like high stage volume, when you hit that note on a Les Paul, thru a Marshall stack, that's just on the edge of feed back! And when you put the hammer down on a power chord, the air moved thru 2-4+12 cabs, makes your britches legs flap in the breeze! Been rockin' since the 60's, and I can still hear, I just can't understand what people say!

Dickie Whitley · Post by **Dickie Whitley** » 23 Feb 2013 11:27 am

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 23 Feb 2013 4:42 pm

Most of the clubs here have house PAs now, and many seriously ride herd on stage volume levels. The club frequently wants to control the overall sound level so they don't run into trouble with the local noise-ordinance nazis. If the periodically-roaming enforcers can hear essentially anything of live music at street level, they are free to write a noise-ordinance ticket and often do. So if you want to open up an amp at all, it can't be very powerful. I agree with Donny that it's not a good idea to open them way up for clean pedal steel, but I don't like running an amp at 5-10% of its rated output, they just sound constipated to me. I ride more like between 20 and 40%, at least for tube amps.

When playing guitar and steel at lower volumes, the Princeton Reverb (guitar) and Deluxe Reverb or Bassman (pedal steel) make a nice, complementary pair with reasonable headroom that don't break my back. I took just that Princeton Reverb to a sub guitar gig with an 8-piece band with 4 horns a while back, and with a decent house PA, I could hear everything just fine. And they appreciated the fact that I didn't blow them away with volume.

But of course, every situation is different.

Peggy Green · Post by **Peggy Green** » 23 Feb 2013 4:58 pm

Bill L. Wilson wrote:...And when you put the hammer down on a power chord, the air moved thru 2-4+12 cabs, makes your britches legs flap in the breeze! Been rockin' since the 60's, and I can still hear, I just can't understand what people say!

Bill I have personally seen a bass players pants legs flapping like that during a live radio broadcast from the Hatch Bandshell on the Boston Esplanade (where the Boston Pops do their Fourth of July extravaganza)

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 23 Feb 2013 5:44 pm

I'm with Dickie on everything!
Also Power measured in watts does not equal Decibel. A 50 watt Valve/Tube amp can shatter windows over a 50 watt Solid state amp. Entirely different 'Decibel level' capabilities. Those specs are seldom marked.

I also believe that too many 'big time' and 'Club Acts' are sometimes way too loud, i don't understand it, it becomes a discomfort in my opinion.

I love those those soundmen that carry around the room their decibel meter, it helps keep things under control. Our's does.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 23 Feb 2013 7:20 pm

All tube amps exhibit wave-shaping when pushed hard - a form of harmonic soft-clipping. So any decent tube amp can be pushed to sound at least twice as loud as its peak Watt indicates and still be perceived as sounding clean/pure, compared to regular Solid State amps that have no such "wave-shaping by design" and will just clip.

AFAIK, some Solid State amps, like the NV112, have a form of soft-clipping built in, that, although nothing like how a tube amp shape waves, do allow for pushing into the declared peak Watt limit while keeping a fairly clean/pure sound.

Would think a good tube amp that can deliver 50 Watt, or a tailored Solid State amp that can deliver around 100 Watt fairly cleanly, coupled with the average-efficient speaker/cab designed for the instrument, should do fine for steel in most cases.

Of course, one may have to double or quadruple Watt needed if one wants to push/pull air at frequencies below what for instance a uni-PSG produces on its own. Rumbling and beating in the sub-harmonic frequency range quickly requires enormous amounts of energy. Since all higher frequencies are amplitude-modulated on the lowest, an amp pushed hard with subharmonics quickly runs out of clean headroom.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 24 Feb 2013 9:23 am

It still comes down to the playing situation. If the band is traditional country, fiddles and such, and playing at a traditional volume, 45 watts can be more than adequate. But add in a lead guitar with a 40 watt amp turned up, the bass and drums will follow, and very soon it's going to be time to get out the 200 watt rig. I'm pretty certain that most steelers who really work very much have both options at hand, and if you are lucky enough to be touring with a major act, it may make sense to also build a preamp & processing rack that plugs into the PA and ditch the guitar amp altogether for those shows. It's not exactly 'form follows function' but pretty close...

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 24 Feb 2013 10:32 am

What Dave said.......It's the playing situation you are in that dictates the amp you are using.

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