What's the most useful "2nd" knee lever for C6th?

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 26 Dec 2002 8:38 am

My guitar has 2 levers working on the C6th neck, the standard lever which lowers the 3rd string 1/2 tone, the other lever raises the 4th string 1/2 tone. Buddy Emmons C6th recommends two levers, both working on the 3rd string, raising and lowering it 1/2 tone. I've seen tuning charts which show a raise on the the 4th string, a full tone, some even have a half stop on it. So, what is the most common, most useful, set-up for the 2nd lever? Is there any particular advantage to one arrangement over another? I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts on this subject.

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Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 26 Dec 2002 8:42 am

For me, it's a toss-up to have either 1) 4th-string raise 1/2 tone (A-Bb), or 2) 3rd- and 8th-string raise 1/2 tone (C-Db).

I have a D note on 1st string.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Dec 2002 8:59 am

A to Bb on 4 (same pull can be added on 8 as well, but I prefer just the 4th string)

Can be combined with almost EVERYTHING. Try it, you'll like it. For example,
open - raises 6th to b7
w/P5 - augments 5th (D7aug)
w/P6 - raises 3rd to 4th (Fsus)

C to C# (I believe Herb meant on 3 and 7 although I prefer just raising the 3rd string myself) is also an excellent choice, but I'd go for A to Bb if it were my guitar.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 26 Dec 2002 9:17 am

If I could only use two Knees on the C6th neck it would be to lower the 3rd string C to b
and to raise the 3rd and 7th strings C 1/2 tone
to C#.

I am using 5 knees on the C6th.
The other knees are as follows: MKL lowers the 4th string(A) 1/2 tone the MKV raises the the 6th(E) string 1/2 tone and the MKR raises the 4th string 1/2 tone.

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Playing PSG keeps you on your toes.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 26 Dec 2002 10:11 am

Yes, 3 and 7 is what I meant.

I have five levers on C6, four being the same changes as Emmons, but left knees reversed. I have a vertical that lowers S.5 one whole tone to F.

A-Bb can be used in combination with everything, except pedals 4 and 7, of course!

C-Db is used with P.6 for an augmented, and used with P.8 for a full A7 with 5th tone on top, and with P.5 for an A6, again with 5th tone on top.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 26 Dec 2002 10:27 am

Raise the 4th string from A to Bb. If you don't play much traditional jazz, then the 3rd string raise to C# is also a good option for a 2nd knee lever, ESPECIALLY if you have a D note as your 1st string. Less so if you have a G note on your first string. However, if you play jazz, you MUST raise the 4th string from A to Bb. IMO, it is probably even more important than lowering the 3rd string to B, and WAY, WAY more important (again, IMO) than raising string 3 to C#.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 26 Dec 2002 10:36 am

Thanks guys, it's great to get such a quick response from such knowledgeable players. I really need to work on the C6th. I guess that will be my New Year's resolution. Thanks again.

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Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 26 Dec 2002 12:47 pm

The 4th string from A to Bb.Heck I thought is was standard.

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Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 26 Dec 2002 1:59 pm

I'm pleased to know that there are some fine players out there who are not locked into E9th only! C6th is a great tuning.....don't let it die! Knees are where it's AT!!! for
steel guitars!!!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Dec 2002 2:42 pm

Happy Holidays, Uncle Doug
As Peggy Green once put it, the back neck is the 'deep well' -- I like that.

As you know, I only have one neck -- never can figure out whether it's the front one or the back one.

Ho Ho Ho!!

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 26 Dec 2002 4:18 pm

I've got a five-lever guitar but found out I could comfortably reach the LVL while my foot was on pedal 6. That's where I put the 4th string raise. So I bet a lot of players with five-lever guitars could use three of them for the back neck.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 26 Dec 2002 6:09 pm

Larry-You are getting the best of both worlds all on one neck. And you do it very well!...Happy New Year....al

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 26 Dec 2002 10:35 pm

If I had only two they would be, 3rd string lower C to B (split with 7th pedal to get C#)and 4th string lower A to Ab (split with either 4th or 7th pedal for Bb). My other two are, raise 7th string C to D and raise 6 string E to F.

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 27 Dec 2002 8:32 am

Herb, I am going to try your idea of lowering the G (5th) to F instead of raising the E (6th).

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 27 Dec 2002 10:17 am

Joe
I used to have the E-F raise. It's a toss-up for me because sometimes I liked to use 1) the descending line F-E-Eb on string 6, and 2) the F-G-A triad on strings 6-5-4.

However, I can get the same triad 2 frets back using strings 5-4-3 with the 2nd string lower lever.

The 5th string whole tone lower G-F was suggested to me by both Paul Franklin and Jim Loessberg, who to me are like E.F. Hutton... when they talk, I listen.

And since I had a vertical on C6 I wasn't using, I slapped it on there.

It's useful to me, right now, for a full dominant 7th with pedal 6, root tone in the middle as well. Also for a #9 chord with pedal 5, and a major 7th half-tone interval with string 6 (E-F), an augmented with pedal 8, as well as a cool descending (or ascending) run chromatically from string 1 (D), string 3 (Db-C-B), string 4 (Bb-A-Ab), string 5 (G-Gb-F), and string 6 (E-Eb).

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 27 Dec 2002 2:12 pm

I also use the full tone lower on string 5 from G to F. I tried raising string 6 to F some time back and, while certainly having value as any pull does, does not have the versatility of the 5th string lower. This is in large part because the 5th string lower works in conjunction with pedal 6. That E to Eb pull on pedal 6 is probably the most important pull on the entire tuning. By raising the 6th string from E to F, you lose the capability to combine it with pedal 6. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 27 December 2002 at 02:13 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 27 Dec 2002 4:26 pm

As you know, I only have one neck -- never can figure out whether it's the front one or the back one.

that's your famous single neck crossover, I've heard tell

Ralph H. Moorehead · Post by **Ralph H. Moorehead** » 28 Dec 2002 3:08 pm

The C6th is the only way to go. Great tuning