type of grease for changer?

[Joe Babb]

Hey Gang,
Hope everybody's going to have a good thanksgiving.

I'm rebuilding an Emmons D10 Le Grande II and have disassembled the changers and cleaned out the old dried grease and polished up the axles. Does anyone know what type of grease Emmons recommends for changers?

I've got my own thoughts on lubrication of these things but since I plan to sell this one as soon as I get it back together, I thought going with manufacturers recommended practice was best. I've got a call in to the company but figured that someone on the forum would know as well.
thanks,
Joe

[CrowBear Schmitt]

keep the grease fer the tatters Joe
use gun or sewing machine earl on the Emmons
i mean....oil

[Joe Babb]

I tend to agree with you about using a light oil. It's just that a few years ago, I ordered a replacement changer from Emmons and it came assembled and it seemed to have had a dark heavy grease for lubricant. Thus my question.
Joe

[Joe Babb]

Hey Crow Bear,
There's only one t in the middle of taters. Besides, tomorrow we won't use grease on 'em, we'll be puttin' on good giblet gravy. Happy thanksgiving.
Where exactly is Ariege anyway? Sharon and I looked in the atlas and found the river but not the town.
Joe

[John Roche]

Ariege is in France...

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Hey Joe !
i done sent you a pm concerning that location w: plenty of pics
Come on over !
Happy Thanksgiving

[Donny Hinson]

I It's just that a few years ago, I ordered a replacement changer from Emmons and it came assembled and it seemed to have had a dark heavy grease for lubricant. Thus my question.

A dark, thick lube would probably be moly cam lube - a great product, and well suited...if it weren't so messy. The same would be true for a graphite-based oil, used by locksmiths forever. I'd suggest a light oil, like sewing machine oil or gun oil, either of which is made for close-fitting metal parts where not being "messy" is priority.

[Doug Palmer]

I worked at Emmons, and we used automotive grease. Nothing exotic, the type used in packing the wheel bearings. After you assemble it, use a light machine oil such as liquid wrench super oil or 3 in one. Many see the dark grease seeping out between the fingers and try to get rid of it. It's a good thing and should be there. FYI, I learned this from Ron Lashley Sr.

PS- Don't forget to square the changer before mounting it.

Doug

[Jack Stoner]

In 71 I bought a new Emmons D-10 PP (Black of course). I made a trip to Burlington and had it adjusted. I asked Ron what to use to lubricate it and he told me to use Liquid Wrench #2 (no longer made)as that is what they used.

I worked for Little Roy Wiggins at his Nashville (lower Broadway) music store that was an Emmons dealer as the amp and guitar repair tech. I've rebuilt a couple of PP's and after cleaning the disassembled changer, I used the Liquid Wrench #2 to oil everything during reassembly. Never had a problem with that. There was no grease in any PP changer that I've worked on.

Sadly I used the last of my Liquid Wrench #2 a couple of years ago. The Liquid Wrench Super Oil is supposed to be the replacement but it doesn't seem the same.

[Ray Thomas]

Tri-Flo, available at your local bike shop

[Joe Babb]

Dupont has a product called Teflon Silicone lubricant that seems extra slippery and very light weight. Anyone have any concerns about using that?
Doug, I understand that the changer must be square with the guitar body but wasn't sure if that was what you meant. The changers are located pretty much by the screws that fasten them. Or were you talking about making sure everything moves freely after fastening the back block that holds the row of socket head cap screws? If that assembly somehow is twisted or out of joint odd things might happen. Also, the 10th string finger has a little bit of a rivet ground off. That makes that finger unique among the set.
Have I missed anything else?
The thing I dislike about the axle grease is that over time, if a person doesn't drop a little light oil between the cracks, the grease has a tendency to either dry out or collect dirt particles and harden up. I've rebuilt about 4 other changers from older guitars where the axle is actually scored because of it.
Joe

[Ray Anderson]

Any "sticky or tacky" lube or grease will collect dust and dirt and stay there, therefore making "sandpaper" and that ain't good. Light oils are not as apt to attract these and can be washed out with occasinal applications. Marvel Mystery Oil is a good choice as is 3n1.YMMV

[Ray Anderson]

Any "sticky or tacky" lube or grease will collect dust and dirt and stay there, therefore making "sandpaper" and that ain't good. Light oils are not as apt to attract these and can be washed out with occasinal applications. Marvel Mystery Oil is a good choice as is 3n1.YMMV

[Doug Palmer]

Didn't know LW super oil was discontinued. 3 in one will do. Drench it between string changes. Square the changer with a T square across the top of the pillow mounts then mount it to the guitar. Use a hammer and wood block to square it with the body if necessary. We used the front of the pillow mounts to check for that.

Hope this helps.

Doug

[Joseph Meditz]

With my Excel changer apart I saw that it was generously greased with a clear amber colored medium weight grease. To my surprise the grease was perfectly clean! Evidently the grease formed a seal in between the fingers. However, there was jet black oil at the ends, i.e., fingers 1 and 10, where the fingers are exposed.

I used Finish Line Teflon Bike Grease.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/f ... grease.htm

The fingers need something with body that will stay put on the finger journals where I think binding is most likely to occur. So, I think sewing machine oil will only work temporarily and require further oiling later on, and it is uncertain whether the resulting oily mess will find its way to where it is needed. The only guarantee is a grimy changer.

My changer is clean and works smoothly. Since assembling it I have not oiled it or intend to.

[Bo Borland]

My Derby has lots of miles on it and it still has a black ooze coming up between the changer fingers when i play it..
I asked someone about it and they THOUGHT Charlie usd a mixture of graphite and bee's wax... it sounded a little strange to me.. MY guess is a good quality automtive grease.

[Jerry Overstreet]

Charlie used Super Oil on his Derby guitars. It's what he gave me when I bought mine. Never heard him mention any other type of lube. Of course he could have used something else for assembly, I suppose.

Interesting post from Doug about the wheel bearing grease. If he worked there, he should know. It seems too heavy to me, but Emmons probably had their reasons.

That bicycle grease appears to be a good lube.

If I were going to use grease, I'd probably try white lithium lube. But it's so light in color, all the black alum residue would probably look really nasty mixed in there.

Grease is generally recommended when there's a lot of load friction and high heat neither of which is indicated with pedal steel applications.

You would think a light oil would be sufficient for pedal steels where there's virtually no heat, but I would defer to the individual manufacturers for their recommendations.

[Ray Anderson]

I would think that there are many beneficial minds and opinions on matters such as these, just because they biuld instruments doesn't make them lubricant and metalurgical specialist. These conditions apply to many fields and vocations that are more highly complex that an instrument. JMHO

[Joseph Meditz]

just because they biuld instruments doesn't make them lubricant and metalurgical specialist.

Compared to sewing machine oil, using teflon grease before assembling a changer is more expensive, much more time consuming and much messier. This, I think, is the reason some are not greased.

Nevertheless, I think that all changers built nowadays, however the builder decides to lubricate them, should be sealed and maintenance free like the Schildt and, I think, GFI.

[Joe Babb]

Wow, this certainly turned into an interesting topic.
Many thanks for all the input.
Joseph, I'm going to look into the teflon bike grease as that sounds very interesting.
The one data point that I can point to is that a changer I rebuilt (polishing out the scoring on the axle) and only used light oil on is still clean and bright 3 years later.
Tribology, the science of friction and lubrication is a difficult one. I've looked at some treatises in books and online and nothing I could find really addresses the conditions in a pedal steel changer. But it sounds like we've found some solutions that work.
Thanks, everyone.
Joe

[Tony Glassman]

I use a thin coat of Valvoline Moly All-Purpose grease on changer axles during rebuilds. Thin viscosity oils tend to migrate away from the axle over time but the thicker grease stays in place. White lithium grease is a great lubricant but eventually dries out and becomes a powder.

Everywhere else I use either Tri-Flow or Zoom-Oil.

http://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-VV632-F ... B000GAD07O

[Lynn Stafford]

I use a thin coat of Valvoline Moly All-Purpose grease on changer axles during rebuilds. Thin viscosity oils tend to migrate away from the axle over time but the thicker grease stays in place. White lithium grease is a great lubricant but eventually dries out and becomes a powder.

Everywhere else I use either Tri-Flow or Zoom-Oil.

http://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-VV632-F ... B000GAD07O

I use the same Valvoline product when I rebuild changers. I also apply it on the pedal cross shaft ends and their respective bushings in the aprons (where applicable).

I also use Tri-Flow (in the little black plastic bottle with the application straw) everywhere else but a little goes a long way.

[Tony Glassman]

Lynn, I think you are the one that "turned me on" to the moly grease. I put it on the pedal rack axle shaft too.

[Lynn Stafford]

Lynn, I think you are the one that "turned me on" to the moly grease. I put it on the pedal rack axle shaft too.

Yep, I think you're correct. I too use the same grease on pedal racks that use an axle, such as older Emmons push-pulls and Sho-Bud guitars. It's not required with pedals that incorporate Nylon or Delron bushings of course.

[Jack Strayhorn]

Emmons guitars are assembled using white lithium grease.