The right hand in speed picking

[Tab Tabscott]

I've been looking at various printed and video speed picking licks lately, and I'm wondering about the thumb and fingers and how they interact...

On some video's I've seen, the teacher seems to be playing strings 9, 8, 7, and 6 all in a row with the thumb, then hitting string 5 with a finger.
Then, on the same passage the same teacher plays the phrase with what looks this:
(T-Thumb, 1-1st finger, etc...)

9(T) 8(2) 7(T) 6(2) 5(2)

or

9(T) 8(2) 7(T) 6(2) 5(T)
I'd call this last example a "crossover"-i.e., hitting a string with a finger, and then hitting a note on a string above with the thumb...

I've seen lots of guys play a line like that like this:

9(T) 8(1) 7(2) 6(T) 5(1)

Questions-how prevalent is this crossover technique?
It certainly seems to have more economy of movement than the other two examples...

How prevalent is the "Thumb drag"-not in the "gutting" sort of lick, but rather for playing a line of single string notes quickly one after the other?

Is there a good video treatise on right hand techniques like these from a master?

Do any of you go backwards with the thumb pick on the same string for a sort of "machine gun" attack?
I mean this as if you were using the thumb pick more like a flat pick-independent of whats going on with the fingers...sort of like this:
F = forward pick stroke B=backward pick stroke

8F 8B 8F 8B 8F 5(raised, with finger)


Doug J showed me how to play the bridge to Orange Blossom special using the crossover technique years ago, but later he swore it wasn't him...

Thanks in advance...
Tab

[Lane Gray]

I learned from a guy who mainly believed in P and M (Thumb and Middle: several years of school guitar, sorry.), invoking the index mainly when the other two either can't get there in time or don't make sense. I rarely use the "slow strum" as it sounds different.
I think practice and internalizing where the notes are is the big key. Only when I am sick have I ever had a problem with not being able to play to notes as fast as I can think them ( I refuse to play while drunk, or drink while playing). Paul Franklin had a line to that effect, but I do not remember the exact words.

[Tab Tabscott]

Thanks Layne-
What I'm asking is about that proximity-I've internalized where the notes are-

So...I take that to mean when you play 9-8-7-6-5 in a row in an uptempo song you go P-M-P-M-M? Or P-M-P-M-P
?

[Whip Lashaway]

Tab, Its such a weird thing. Nobody of course is born pickin speed. You do it in slow mo over and over again. But, I find that phrases that I use a lot in speed can be done a couple different ways, as far as fingering. Especially the first 1 or 2 notes and the last 1 or 2 notes. It kinda depends on where I'm coming from to get into it and where I'm going when I leave it. If you have it totally ingrained into your brain, it just happens. Its not really something that can be explained. Kinda like riding a bike. If you don't know how, you wonder how. But once you can, you just do it and can't really understand how you got there.

[Tab Tabscott]

Yes, what you said, Whip.
It all depends on where you are going or coming from. I get that...

Like on this one video the man plays it one way when he does the example at speed, then another way as he walks you through it, and then another slightly different way when he wraps it up. There is no reference to digit selection on the right hand. So I guess the answer to all those questions is...."Yes".

Good thing the contracting business is drying up for the year...now I don't have to quit my day job!
Tab

[Lane Gray]

Thanks Layne-
What I'm asking is about that proximity-I've internalized where the notes are-

So...I take that to mean when you play 9-8-7-6-5 in a row in an uptempo song you go P-M-P-M-M? Or P-M-P-M-P
?

I guess that'd probably end with P unless the next note out of my mind would come from a lower string. If I'm thinking ahead to a lower string, it might well come out P-M-P-I-M so the thumb will be back down south.
EDIT:
Or, thinking about it, I might claim to give P-I-M-P-M a whirl.
But if I just got done playing it, I doubt I could state categorically how I'd just done it.
"I think the notes; they come out of the speakers. That's how it works."

[Kevin Lichtsinn]

I learned from a guy who mainly believed in P and M (Thumb and Middle: several years of school guitar, sorry.), invoking the index mainly when the other two either can't get there in time or don't make sense. I rarely use the "slow strum" as it sounds different.
I think practice and internalizing where the notes are is the big key. Only when I am sick have I ever had a problem with not being able to play to notes as fast as I can think them ( I refuse to play while drunk, or drink while playing). Paul Franklin had a line to that effect, but I do not remember the exact words.

I have always been amazed how some players can drink and still play. Heck, If I have a couple of beers, my practice time is worthless!!!

[Earnest Bovine]

If I have a couple of beers, my practice time is worthless!!!

The experts say that if you want to learn to play drunk, you should practice drunk.

[Gary Lee Gimble]

Tab,
I don't have the youtube web addy(s) at my finger tips, but if you conduct a search on Joe Pass, zero in on his picN thumb. I've seen him pick a barrage of fast notes all with his thumb. Granted, some notes are expanded with pull offs and slides, but still, fast stuff with his thumb. And why not on steel, using your thumb for at least the first two notes....if it feels right and flows...
gL

[Dick Sexton]

Quote: "The experts say that if you want to learn to play drunk, you should practice drunk."

Best one of the day...

[Ken Pippus]

And if you just stay drunk all the time, it becomes a moot point. And avoids hangovers.

I don't see a down side!

KP

[Henry Matthews]

Sometimes I can play fast and accurate and other times I can't. I really wish I knew why I can't at times. Never was a fast picker anyway but I play some fast runs and phrases and at times, they just aren't there. I worked a whole year on nothing but technique and such and found out that my thumb and middle finger are the best for fast stuff. I can block better and play phrases faster and cleaner and it also puts your right hand in a better position for blocking.

[Bo Legg]

The practice of total discipline and dedication to every detail to all the necessary requirements within and related to Pick Blocking will after practicing until you don’t have to think about it will get you where you want to go with your speed within the limits of your dexterity.

(9)T (8.)1 (7)2 (6)T (5)1
In my way of pick blocking the the thumb picks and starts to crossover and then 1 finger picks and starts to crossover and my 2 finger picks and then starts to crossover about the same time my thumb reaches string 6 and and picks as my 1 finger lands on string 5 then picks.
The blocking is the key here but I don't want to derail the topic with the details.

[Bill Miller]

Sometimes when the subject of speed picking comes up I wonder if the originators ever actually worked it out in analytical terms. Or is it something that just evolved naturally? I have not been blessed with the patience required to endlessly practice excercises designed to build speed. It may well be a character flaw but after short bouts of struggling with what someone else has prescribed as proper practice I ditch it and go back to just making music on my own terms. Nonetheless, over time my speed is definitely improving. I hunkered down over learning Bruce Bouton's Highway 40 Blues solo and the more I fought with it the worse I seemed to be doing. But now and then I still practice along with it and the other day I basically nailed it without even trying that hard. Part of it is gone again for now but it will be back. My right hand dexterity is just naturally improving with the years of seat time. Ever so gradually the connection between my hands and brain is strengthening and it is easier for the hands to reproduce what I'm hearing in my head.
The fastest pickers seem to have different ways of achieving their results. So maybe rather than getting so wrapped up in 'T' 'I' 'M' it's better ( for some of us at least ) to just listen and focus on capturing the essence of the music first. Dexterity and speed will develop with time and your own technique will emerge.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

like many i got used to Thumb & Middle as the lead finger
but since i have 3 fingers : Thumb, Index & Middle, i've worked on using all 3 so that both the Index & Middle are used & have the same velocity & power
i've also worked on using the Index instead of the Middle for the lead
since i always " dig in " first, i use each finger in it's place according to the phrase/run/lick/scale
three fingers mean triplets (at least to me they do)
when you need that fourth note, i play the 3 & kinda snap my Thumb up to the fourth
once there i still have Index & Middle to continue
Hope this makes sense

[Larry Behm]

For a 4 string move going forward I might use T-T-I-M. Going backwords I might use M-M-I-T or M-I-I-T. If there are pedal moves in there it also allows more time and more options.

Larry Behm

[Donny Hinson]

Since I'm using a thumb pick and 2 finger picks, I usually tend to think of a large group of notes played in rapid succession as smaller groups of either 2 or 3 notes. Therefore, a fast group of 5 notes would either be executed as 2 and then 3, or vice versa, and a fast group of 6 notes would be executed as 2 plus 2 plus 2, or 3 plus 3. On occasion, I will do 2 to 4 notes in rapid succession with just the thumb, but I normally do this only for fast doublets or triplets, or ascending scales.) Most steel players playing fast seem use the 2 plus 2 approach (with the thumb and middle) but then again, I use whatever I can do easier, and I probably rely more on the index finger than most players. Some moves that are incredibly easy for me give other players a fit, while other moves that are easy for them prove very challenging to me. The bottom line of all this is that rather than listening to other players tell you what works for them, and then going with the majority, you should try various methods and see what comes easiest and most natural to you. We're not all wired the same, either mentally or physiologically, so that means that there may be several different practical approaches to doing whatever it is that we want to do.

The bottom line is - use what works best for you!

[Sid Hudson]

Just a thought.

[b0b]

This is how I learned it in 1978. My fingers still lapse into the cross picking pattern sometimes. I don't recommend it to my students because it doesn't allow for pick blocking.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Tab, Try Joe Wright's picking video.

[Cal Sharp]

I've thought about this a lot, and I've tried every which-a-way to pick, assiduously using one style to the exclusion of others for weeks or months at a time, trying to see what worked best for me. After 40 years I've concluded that the best way is not to intellectualize it too much - just play. YMMV

[Jim Priebe]

Sid - those red picks are they really faster ?? must try them.
Cal - you got the answer in a couple of lines man! Spot on.