Is that old sound and tone lost forever?

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 14 Sep 2012 9:34 pm

After reading the many thousands of post on this forum and the multitude of players who now build their own steels, lap and consul, there are still many players who are searching for that old time Little Roy Wiggins, Don Helms and a few other’s tone and sound of those old steels. Is it even possible to get that sound of those old guitars anymore with all the modern techniques, materials, pickups and strings being built into the new factory and homemade steels?

I fully understand the concept of, “it’s all in the hands” and the unique playing methods of these old steelers; however, other than the old records, will anyone ever be able to “duplicate” those sounds with the mechanics of modern steel guitars?

Even though I don’t have a 1948 Gibson Console Grande, I can get close to Don’s or Little Roy Wiggins sound with the same tuning and string gauges but it still does not have the same tone; no matter how hard I try.

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 15 Sep 2012 4:17 am

Les, don't you think that apart from the instruments used in the day and the " hands factor " , an awful lot of that vintage sound you refer to had to do with the recording equipment and technology? It would be interesting to put a bunch of the same era musicians playing the same instruments in a 21st century studio and see what the result would sound like.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Sep 2012 4:49 am

I agree, some players do want the sound of the older gear. What I can't figure out is why they don't just go out and buy an old guitar? (Or amp.) If I had a hankering for something old...an Argus C3, a Sylvania TV with "Halo Light", or a Victrola, it'd be far easier to find an older one and fix it up than it would be to build one from scratch. Only in the case of the old Bigsby guitars would I say that price makes buying impractical. Everything else is just a SScheck away.

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 15 Sep 2012 6:13 am

On the other side of the coin, I would love to hear those guys on some of this modern day equipment. I'm sure their thoughts were on "wonder how this would sound"? Speaking of the upgrades we enjoy today. Their technique and todays instruments would be stellar. Everything has its era and that is what makes it great.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 15 Sep 2012 7:52 am

JERRY BYRD's late 1960's Sho-Bud twin, non-pedal steel guitar thro' a mid-60's Fender Twin Reverb is about as simple as it gets.

This sound can be heard on YOU TUBE and the JERRY BYRD-FanClub.com site.

It's full bodied and most pleasant but it is not the Rickenbacher/Volu-Tone sound........even JERRY admitted that.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 15 Sep 2012 8:46 am

It has often been pointed out that some of the finest playing has occurred when the musician was struggling to execute his ideas either from a limitation in his technique or from the equipment fighting back. I can make a list a mile long of rock guitarists who had achieved early FM radio success and had to work really hard to re-play the hits live, because they were constructed in the studio. But then as their technique got better and they got some wonderful shiny new toys, they could eventually play their parts in their sleep. So, they did.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 15 Sep 2012 9:25 am

Steel players of the 1950s used low power tube amps, about 20 to 25 watts, no reverb. Recording studio consoles were tube, recording techniques were different, room sound and mic placement were a big part of the sound. Steel guitar pickups were single coil, less windings than today's pickups, producing a lighter, sweeter tone. Those are some of the differences that come to mind. A modern steel guitar with a powerful humbucking pickup, played through a solid state amp will not produce a vintage sound. It will be a good sound, strong and clean... but that's the problem... too clean, too dark in tone, unlike the 1950s steel sounds.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 15 Sep 2012 9:54 am

Bill Miller wrote:Les, don't you think that apart from the instruments used in the day and the " hands factor " , an awful lot of that vintage sound you refer to had to do with the recording equipment and technology? It would be interesting to put a bunch of the same era musicians playing the same instruments in a 21st century studio and see what the result would sound like.

Bill, I work with the Don Helms sound through a 1946 Guya D8 and use a Fender Princeton Reverb tube amp. As I said, even though that Princeton Reverb amp is tubed, it still has much of the 1950s output. What I was referring to was the use of the new materials being used while still trying duplicate that old time sound. I don't think it can be done to duplicate the sound and tone of the 1940s & 50s equipment.

I think Doug Beaumier hit the nail on the head with his post. The modern equipment is too refined and clear to get that lower powered amp sound of the forties and fifties. I also believe that solid circuitry also left the fuzzy tube sound in the dust.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 15 Sep 2012 11:59 am

Les,

No matter what guitar, the Little Walter amp creates that old tonality....It is an instrument unto itself......If you want to check it out, there is a Sept 10th WSM live radio broadcast of a Timejumpers gig with the Little Walter.....The path is the guitar, the amp, a reverb pedal and straight to the airwaves. Vince, Andy, and I all used a Little Walter for the gig.

Paul

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 16 Sep 2012 4:09 am

If you can manange to buy a Little Walter AND keep a roof over your head that may be the perfect solution for you Les. I wouldn't mind being able to nail those vintage tones on demand, but for the most part I much prefer the more lush, full range modern pedal steel sounds. While I have the utmost respect for the pioneers of our instrument, I've always found that they often sounded like they were playing through walkie talkies on the old records.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 16 Sep 2012 4:16 am

The vintage sound of the forties and fifties records may not be much to strive for, but there are a lot of hi-fi recordings from the sixties that have a full range sound (yet very different from today's). Players like Buddy E/Buddy C with Ernest Tubb; Roy Wiggins with Eddy Arnold and George Morgan;and not forgetting Lloyd Green's early work. Especially Lloyd Green; the difference in his tone (and playing style) between 1965 and, say, just five years later is wider than the Grand Canyon! Both nice, but very different.

Personally, I would really like to be able to make my Zum sound like Little Roy's console steel on "Mr Ting-a-ling Steel Guitar Man" or "Bouquet of Roses". (No, I'm NOT getting a lap steel!) Maybe Jon Light's new pickup system would do the trick?

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 16 Sep 2012 5:12 am

Bill Miller wrote:If you can manange to buy a Little Walter AND keep a roof over your head that may be the perfect solution for you Les.

Les,

With the economy as it is I totally understand wise spending. I personally would own one guitar and the Little Walter than two guitars and anything else.

Paul

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 16 Sep 2012 6:10 am

Especially Lloyd Green; the difference in his tone (and playing style) between 1965 and, say, just five years later is wider than the Grand Canyon!

Yes Per, that's probably true. I haven't really analyzed the difference in style but I have noticed a difference in tone between Lloyd Green on the early Ricky Skaggs albums of the seventies and his more recent work. But hasn't Lloyd Green been a stickler for using pretty much the same gear throughout most of his career? If so, it seems to point to the studios as being a huge variant. A generation of producers, engineers and analogue recording gear has gradually been replaced.

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 16 Sep 2012 7:09 am

Hal Rugg on The Wilburn Brothers show is a great example of vintage tone. (Hal's talent didn't hurt either...).

Ron Whitworth · Post by **Ron Whitworth** » 16 Sep 2012 7:11 am

Donny Hinson wrote:I agree, some players do want the sound of the older gear. What I can't figure out is why they don't just go out and buy an old guitar? (Or amp.) If I had a hankering for something old...an Argus C3, a Sylvania TV with "Halo Light", or a Victrola, it'd be far easier to find an older one and fix it up than it would be to build one from scratch. Only in the case of the old Bigsby guitars would I say that price makes buying impractical. Everything else is just a SScheck away.

I fully agree with what Donny said above..
Remember the sound did change over different time periods so decide which time period you are after 1st -( more cost effective that way! )
I have found it impossible to get the old sound using new equipment -
I can't get there but maybe some of you can ??

I have bought & sold many steel guitars & amps trying to get the sound I heard in my head.After spending
many many $$$$$$'s I finally put an older pedal steel together with an older tube amp & BAM - there was the sound I was looking for - right there in front of me !!

Some are searching for a sound they either heard one time in their past or hear in their head now. Most are very happy with the sound they have today.
Nothing wrong with either IMHO..The equipment today is great but it just does not have the sound that " inspires " me - that is how I would have to say it -
Find the sound that makes you want to play & play then you will be much happier - that is what it is all about anyway to me ..
Ron

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 16 Sep 2012 7:44 am

To my ear Todd Cinesmiths steel guitars have the Bigsby sound and John Allisons steels have the Fender sound down.

Also I play a stock 67 Emmons D10 through a 60's Fender Twin and get the old sound but often I'm playing different music and have a different role in that music so people hear my sound as modern.

Jim Hollingsworth · Post by **Jim Hollingsworth** » 16 Sep 2012 8:59 am

The answer lies mostly in two things - tubes & wire. Modern amps & pickups have stronger & cleaner signal paths. In a sense they add more "data" about the high frequencies & push the lows hard with no natural compression. Most recording done on Pro Tools ( the primary program in studios) has the same effect - strong & clean but without warmth or natural compression. For that reason Pro Tools makes songs detailed & clear but also :clinical" - lacking the warmth of tape. For that reason many of us studio recordists are using tube mics & vintage style ($$$) tube pre-amps to return the to that older more natural sound.

The moral is : the "old sound" calls for tube amps & perhaps lower powered pickups to get that mojo.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 16 Sep 2012 9:01 am

On YOU TUBE.......there are several tunes by CLYDE MOODY on King Lable.
"Too Young", "The Angels Must Have Cried Last Night",
to name but two.....

WHAT do YOU.........think of Byrd's tone on these cuts?

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 16 Sep 2012 9:32 am

I have plenty of instruments and amplifiers from that time period, and even microphones and recorders, but I still don't sound like Jerry Byrd.

Come to think of it, I don't sound like myself from fifty years ago either.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 16 Sep 2012 9:46 am

From what I've read, RCA used to have a completely empty basement underneath their recording studio, with nothing but enormous loudspeakers and ribbon microphones, where they used to play the sound through the speakers and record through the microphones, in order to take advantage of the acoustics of that room. It would be difficult to duplicate that.

While I was looking for a house, 17 years ago, I looked round one which had a complete recording studio in the grounds, built at great expense, which used to be used by the Greatful Dead. People who were looking round were asking each other, "What could we use this room for?" while I was asking myself, "Why wouldn't they use it for its original purpose ?" It still didn't have a vault underneath, though.

Unfortunately, the property was in foreclosure by a bank, who wanted sealed bids. I made a bid on it but was unsuccessful. The bank would have got a higher price by auctioning it.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 16 Sep 2012 10:38 am

Alan Brookes wrote:From what I've read, RCA used to have a completely empty basement underneath their recording studio, with nothing but enormous loudspeakers and ribbon microphones, where they used to play the sound through the speakers and record through the microphones, in order to take advantage of the acoustics of that room. It would be difficult to duplicate that.

I believe that the old Capitol Records building in Hollywood (the one that looks like a stack of records and a phonograph spindle) has or had live echo chambers as the bottom of the building, and that off-site studios could access the chambers via phone lines. Can anyone confirm this?

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 16 Sep 2012 11:23 am

Franklin wrote:
Bill Miller wrote:If you can manange to buy a Little Walter AND keep a roof over your head that may be the perfect solution for you Les.
Les,

With the economy as it is I totally understand wise spending. I personally would own one guitar and the Little Walter than two guitars and anything else.

Paul

Paul, This morning I looked into the Little Walter PF Twin 50 and VG Twin 50 & Little Walter PF Twin 50 and VG Twin 50; then, made a phone call to an old timer who was a steeler from the old days. He has several old amps like the Little Walter’s were fashioned after. I’ll be paying this fellow a visit this afternoon. I’ll be taking both my Guya D8 and the Remington D10 with me. (nope I don’t have a Fender)

Canada has been fortunate enough to escape most of the economic turmoil that our friends in the US have and are going through so people up here are still buying high-end musical equipment. I must admit however that I wouldn’t be buying a Little Walter PF Twin 50 and VG Twin 50 unless I was playing a pedal steel and working full time or doing regular session work. The Little Walter PF Twin 50 & VG twin 50 and sound awfully tempting however. I’ll more than likely be making a decision by late afternoon.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 17 Sep 2012 8:16 am

As an old musician who began playing when high tech amplification was a 30 watt amp with an 6 inch speaker, I fail to understand the "love affair" today with old technology, i.e., minimal bass and shrill trebles.

I love current audio technology that divides and equalizes diverse instrument inputs into ear pleasing balances.

Ron Funk · Post by **Ron Funk** » 17 Sep 2012 12:41 pm

The term Old can mean different things to different folks......., but piggy-backing on PF's comments, listen to his solo & 'old' tone behind Tony Booth's "I Thought I Heard You Calling My Name" on 2nd half of the TJrs archive of last Monday's show.
Perdy neat.

Zane King · Post by **Zane King** » 17 Sep 2012 3:29 pm

What do you think about this sir? Is this an "old" sound like you are speaking of? It has to be at least close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0LyIOOM9I0

The Steel Guitar Forum

Is that old sound and tone lost forever?

Is that old sound and tone lost forever?

A good example..............................

The answer ....

I'm truly curious........................