G-lever or X-lever?

[Michael Hummel]

My Sho-Bud Pro III has the "Sho-Bud" setup (I know, "DUH", but I used to think it was the "Emmons" setup until I read somewhere this week there actually is a "Sho-Bud" setup that has the E-lower on a different lever).

Anyway, I find I hardly ever use the G-lever (raises F# to G) and was wondering if maybe I should convert it to an X-lever (lower the Bs to Bbs).

As I am a beginner, maybe I just haven't figured out the usefulness of the F# raise, but I keep thinking it would be nice to have access to a minor chord with A&B down.

Opinions?
Mike

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

My advise is to add a Vertical, put the F# to G raise there, and covert the other to the X lever.

The primary use of the F# to G change is to give you a 7th chord, but it too has other uses. However, it is almost never used by itself. It is almost always used with one or both pedals down. Since verticals are easier to use when you have some leverage, from an ergonomic perspective, it makes sense to put the F# raise there.

A lot of players put the B to Bb change on a vertical. In my opinion, this is a mistake.

If adding a vertical was not an option and I had to choose between the 2, I'd get the X lever. This has many more uses than merely making the pedals down chord minor. It is perhaps the most difficult of changes to understand, and very few players know all the wonderful things that can be done with it. (Mainly because they put it on a vertical where they seldom use it.)

[Michael Hummel]

Mike:

Thanks for the useful info. As I said I'm a new player (about 3 months) so I'm still climbing the learning curve.

I don't even know if it is possible to add a vertical to my Sho-Bud (should have asked Al Brisco when I was there a month ago, but I didn't even know enough to ask the question!).

I do remember asking him if I should convert the 4th pedal to the "Franklin pedal" and he scoffed, saying "Flavour of the month".

I still have a lot to learn with the classic pedals and levers; just trying to learn as much as I can from the wealth of knowledge here on the forum.

Thanks again,
MIke

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Michael, given that you've only been playing 3 months, You may as well leave the guitar intact. The F# to G change is, as I mentioned primarily used to make a 7th chord (although it has other uses.) Now that you know this, you can start to use it.

What you need to do is learn all the possibilities in the 3 pedals, and the E raises and lowers, including all the chords you get when you use the levers with the pedals both up and down

Also you should practice using the B and C pedals to play harmony scales on strings 4 and 6.

In G, a harmony scale would be 1-fret 3 pedals up, notes B and G; 2- fret 3 pedals down, notes A and C; 3- fret 5 pedals down, notes B and D; 4- fret 8 pedals up, notes C and E; 5-fret 10 pedals up, notes D and F#; 6-fret 10 pedals down, notes E and G; 7 fret 12 pedals down notes F# and A; 9 fret 13 pedals up, notes G and B.

[b0b]

Change the 7th string pull on the G lever to lower the 6th string to F# instead. You'll find a lot of uses for that.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Change the 7th string pull on the G lever to lower the 6th string to F# instead. You'll find a lot of uses for that.

It's true that many people find this change useful. Personally I rarely use it. But Bobby, I think we agree that Michael should learn to use the basic 3 pedals and E raises and lowers before exploring the other possible changes.

[Michael Hummel]

Thank you both for your replies.

Given that the instructional videos I have from Jeff Newman only talk about A&B plus the E lower and E raise, Mike P is absolutely right. I need to play the basics for a while.

I'm always guilty of getting ahead of myself and thinking of the NEXT thing I'm going to do, usually before I'm good where I'm at!

Nothing wrong with dreaming, as long as you wake up once in a while!

Mike

[b0b]

The advantages of the 6th string lower to F# are 1) a V chord in the I position with E's lowered, 2) a minor chord when combined with the B pedal, 3) a 7th chord with A+B pedals, and 4) a whole bunch of cool country licks. It's more useful than the X lever, in my opinion.

[Michael Hummel]

B0b, please forgive the newbie questions...

Can't you do 1) 2) and 3) by just picking string 7 as part of the grip?

Mike

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

The advantages of the 6th string lower to F# are 1) a V chord in the I position with E's lowered, 2) a minor chord when combined with the B pedal, 3) a 7th chord with A+B pedals, and 4) a whole bunch of cool country licks. It's more useful than the X lever, in my opinion.

Bobby, with all due respect, I disagree.

Michael, this is what you're up against. Everybody has differing opinions. However...

[Michael Hummel]

I've learned SO much from (trying to) follow(ing) the forum that I don't mind the differing opinions one little bit!

From years of watching and listening to 6-string players who all think they are THE ONE and tell everyone else they stink, it warms my heart to see all the great steel players on here getting along and offering great advice to us new guys.

If you can call a 55 year-old guy a "new guy".

Mike

[Richard Sinkler]

I am about to (for the 2nd time) remove the B to Bb changes from my guitar and put the F# to G changes back on. I used the F# to G changes a lot and really miss them. It is used for more than just getting the 7th chord with the A & B pedals.

I agree with Bob on the G# to F# lower.

Michael said:

Can't you do 1) 2) and 3) by just picking string 7 as part of the grip?

It's not the note so much as how you get to it and how you can use it. There is a whole lot of great "moving" sounds to be had with the 6th lower and the pedals just moving between the A & B pedals down position (E on fret 7) and the position 2 frets down with the E lowers and the G# to F# lower. Using your logic of having the F# on string 7, you could also question whether you should waste other pedals to get notes you already have in the open position. Why lower string 4 to D#, you have a D# on string 2 (actually, some don't lower string 4)? Why raise string 4 to F# on the C pedal or another knee lever by itself? The same note is on string 1. Why lower string 2 to C# when there is one on string 2 if you use the lever that lowers it to C#, or vice versa, why lower 2 to C# if you have the same note on string 5 with the A pedal? The G# to F# lower on string 6 is my third most used knee lever after the E raises and E lowers.

My thought on getting rid of the B to Bb change is that I rarely use it. I love the II-9 chord (partial) that you get in the open pedals position (E at fret 12 with no pedals, F#9 (partial) with the Bb lever, especially the inversion using strings 3,4,& 5) which is similar to the I to II-9 change you get on pedal 5 on the C6th neck on strings 2,3 &5, but really that is all I use it for. I don't care for the split to C with the A pedal, and frankly, I can half pedal the A pedal and get it faster than using the lever, and if I need that particular minor inversion, I just move up one fret from the pedals down position (E on fret 7) and let off the pedals and hit my lever that lowers the E's to give me the Em chord. And I probably agree with Mike P about not having the B to Bb on the vertical. That's where I have it now, and would probably use it more if it were on a regular lever. Since I don't use it to split the A pedal, I may just put the B to Bb on my first (zero pedal to the left of my main 3 or on pedal 5 just to the right of my main 3, actually that might be cool as I can do the split by pressing my A pedal - P4 - and the 5th pedal B to Bb and just not play strings 3 or 6 with it). I already have P5 raising my B's to C for a good solid Eaug that you would get from the 5th string split to C without having to try to do 2 opposite motions at the same time with the same leg (Pressing DOWN on the A pedal while LIFTING the knee in the opposite direction to hit the Bb lever). This is an unnatural move and I can not get used to it.

[Herb Steiner]

Personally, after 44 years of professional playing, I use the 7th string F#-G change MUCH more than the s.6 lower G#-F# change. But that's for MY licks, your lickage may vary.

[Michael Hummel]

Well, if nothing else, you guys have shown me that it's a tough decision.

I think for now I'm going to leave well enough alone, learn what I've got on the guitar now for another few months, and then take another look.

Thanks for the inputs!
Mike

[Dave Mudgett]

You now have info on the most dominant options for that 4th E9 lever. After 3 months, I don't think it matters a hill of beans which one you have on there, as long as you have

F-lever: E=>F
E-lever: E=>Eb
D-lever: D#=>D(and maybe =>C#) on String 2 and D=>C# on String 9

Personally, on a 4-lever guitar, I'm torn between 5th string B=>Bb versus 6th string G#=>F#, as I have both on any 5+ lever guitar and use them a lot. But if you can get good at half-pedaling the A-pedal to get the halfway-in-between C note, then the G#=>F# change becomes obvious, since one can split that change with the B-pedal to get G when needed.

[Dickie Whitley]

I can go along with Dave and the Herbster, I have the F# to G/G# change on 1 & 7. I also have a knee that lowers both G#s (3 & 6) to G. I love both of them.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

You now have info on the most dominant options for that 4th E9 lever. After 3 months, I don't think it matters a hill of beans which one you have on there, as long as you have

F-lever: E=>F
E-lever: E=>Eb
D-lever: D#=>D(and maybe =>C#) on String 2 and D=>C# on String 9

Agreed. In fact we probable all agree on this.

... the G#=>F# change becomes obvious, since one can split that change with the B-pedal to get G when needed.

This only works if the guitar has tunable splits, and not every one does. A lot of older guitars don't have them. They can be added if changer has an extra unused raise. If not, it involves surgery to the guitars.

But beyond that is the question of voice leading. Raising the # to G gives you one voicing, lowering the G# to , regardless of how it's done (I do it on a zero pedal) gives you another.

I should point out that I have all the changes under discussion on my guitars. And among them I use the B to Bb (which is on the infamous wrist lever) the most often, F# to G (on the vertical) second, G# to G (on the zero pedal) 3rd, and the G# to F# lower on string 6 the least.

Part of this is because the change is on an inner RKL and it's difficult to use without stomping on the volume pedal, and part of it is because I feel that much of what can be accomplished using this lever can also be done by moving the bar and using the other pedals and levers.

[b0b]

I think that your preference in levers, Mike, is influenced by the fact that you almost never play country music. I've always felt that the full-step pull is what makes that country sound. If your goal is to advance steel guitar in classical music, you don't need to make that country sound effect in the middle register very often.

[Len Amaral]

I am comfortable with my pedal setup but I agree with Mike that the B to Bd on a verticle could be used more. I do have the F# to G (1 & 7) on a vertical and use it quite a bit but the X lever not so much.

Lenny

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Bobby, what you say about my musical ambitions is true, and my copedant is based on the idea of trying to maximize the melodic and harmonic possibilities of the instrument, not making it easier to play licks.

However, I think the real reason I rarely use the G# to F# lower is that I didn’t have it for 25 years, and learned how to get many of the same chords and licks it yields by moving the bar and using other pedal changes. That, and the inconvenient location of the knee lever that I mentioned earlier.

So Michael, have we thoroughly confused you by now?

[Dave Mudgett]

This only works if the guitar has tunable splits, and not every one does. A lot of older guitars don't have them. They can be added if changer has an extra unused raise.

With a guitar with a minimalist copedent like we're talking about here - A, B, C pedals plus D, E, F levers and the G#=>F# change on String 6 - then even a 2-raise/1-lower changer will have an unused raise on String 6, and thus one should be able to add a tunable split. Of course, there are guitars that can't do this. But I think most any modern professional-level guitar can. Certainly a Sho Bud Pro III (I assume 3+2?) should be able to do this, n'est pas?

Of course, I agree that the motion of the change is very important - just 'getting the note' is not all there is. But if you can set up that split, and it is truly tunable and that works well in all directions, then if the G#=>F# lever is already engaged, then you can get the F#=>G change on String 6 by simply pressing the B-lever.

{edited last paragraph out to avoid confusion}

[Donny Hinson]

If you've only been playing 3 months, my feeling is you should worry more about picking, bar, and volume pedal skills than adding changes. Those things will do more for your playing than any move or chord change you might add.

[Michael Hummel]

Yes, I am somewhat confused -- as Donny says, I should be concentrating on the fundamentals. My picking is coming along well, the bar work is okay. One thing I do have trouble with is palm blocking.

But (just ask my wife) when I take on a new challenge, I get rather obsessive about it and I want to learn and do everything possible right away!

I have no idea if I can even do any of these mods to my Sho-Bud Pro III (8p + 4k). Can someone explain a "tunable split"?

Thanks for all the help and advice so far.
Mike

[Richard Sinkler]

A tuneable split is where you take 2 pedal changes to end up with a third change not available by a pedal or lever by itself. An example would be on string 6. If you lower the G# to F# and the hit the B pedal to raise it up a half step, you SHOULD end up at a G, but most likely it will be out of tune. So, you add another rod to the knee lever that lowers the string to F# onto the raise finger of the 6th string. Now you tune the changes like this:

• 1. Tune G# open with tuning key
  2. Tune the A note on the B pedal with the raise nylon nut.
  3. press the B pedal down (I also press A down when I tune my split), and tune the G note WITH THE NYLON NUT ON THE LOWER FINGER.
  4. Hit just the lever that lowers the string to F#. The F# will most likely be a little flat. Use the nylon nut on the new rod to bring the F# in tune. I also activate my E to D# lever because I use the F# lower a lot with the flatted E notes.

[Dave Mudgett]

The split tuning we're talking about here is lowering the 6th string two half-tones (G#=>F#) and then raising it back up a single half-tone to G with the B-pedal. The problem is that the act of moving down two half-tones changes the string tension, and thus depressing the B-pedal may not give you an exact half-tone raise anymore. So an additional degree of tuning freedom is frequently needed to get both changes in tune. There are generally two ways to do this. The first is to drill and thread a hole in the changer to add a screw for a second stop - my Emmons Legrande and Zums each have these as standard equipment, and they really make split tuning easy. The second is to add an extra pull to bring the out-of-tune note to the correct pitch. As mentioned earlier, you need an unused raise hole on 6th string changer finger to do this, which I don't think is a problem on a Pro III when starting with the simple setup you are talking about.

This thread has an excellent explanation, with diagrams, of both methods of split tuning - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=104579

As you can see from my first post, I completely agree with Donny that if you have the critical 3+3 changes, whatever you have on the 4th lever is no issue at all. But you did ask a question, which people have tried to answer. Naturally, there's no universal agreement about which is the 'best' way to go, nor will there ever be.