Future of the C6 neck?

[Alex Cattaneo]

Is it me or does it seem that many builders are focusing on the E9th and phasing out the C6? We see many lightweight models, like the Mullen Discovery or the Justice Pro Lite, and ETS only makes an E9 S10 model. But more importantly, is it possible that players are finding ways to play what they want/need to play using the E9 exclusively? I know I will most likely never bother to carry a D10 around, and if I can manage to learn to play Hawaiian and western swing on the E9th, then I might even unload my Stringmaster D8 and completely focus on the E9th.

It seems like C6 and E9 are two different sports, and I only have time to train for one. Most of the instructional material out there is for the E9th anyway. Plus, with the 12 and 14 string universal or extended options, and the seemingly impossible number of pedals and levers people manage to fit under their guitars, maybe one neck is enough.

[Jim Hollingsworth]

Hi Alex,
There have been some threads prior to this one about C6 but I think that most of us feel that the C6 has as bright a future as E9. Most new players start with E9 because it is (in some respects)easier. But sooner or later the more experienced guys discover that the C6 is a great tuning & is capable of so much great music. Paul Franklin flat out shreds on C6 - jazz, blues, swing, you name it. Check out the group Standard Deviations on Youtube....they cover jazz & even Pat Metheny materials with total aplomb. Trust me .... C6 will be around as long as pedal steels are being made & played.

[Ray McCarthy]

That's great stuff Who's the steeler

[Jack Stoner]

I have a D-10 and wouldn't be without one. There was a recent thread about this and some argue that it isn't so. But, there does seem to be a large number of E9th SD-10's and S-10's being built and sold.

[Donny Hinson]

Is it me or does it seem that many builders are focusing on the E9th and phasing out the C6?... maybe one neck is enough.

Most guitars are built-to-order; you make what the customer wants. Even if a builder had money enough to build and stock dozens and dozens of guitars, S10's and D10's would still far outsell the 12 and 14 string models. I really don't think the 14's will ever get popular, and view them the way most 6-string players probably view a harp guitar. You reach a point where complexity drives off both veteran and potential players, regardless of any musical advantages it might offer, and I think we've reached that point with "loaded" 12 & 14 string pedal steels.

[Howard Steinberg]

I'm thinking that the focus on light weight guitars is in part based on some of us who are getting older and still are playing out. Thirty years ago I was carrying around an MSA D-10 with a 90 pound Carvin tube amp. As much as I miss having a guitar with a C6 neck on gigs I know that schlepping this stuff is no longer in the cards for me.
There is also the issue of the cost of flying something that weighs over 50 pounds.

I'd bet that there are a lot of us who play C6, but have made this adjustment in order to keep going.

[Ken Metcalf]

Funny thing...
Take a piece of paper write out all the notes on a C6th then drop all the notes 1 half step to B6th and note the similarities to E9th with Es lowered

[Alex Cattaneo]

You reach a point where complexity drives off both veteran and potential players, regardless of any musical advantages it might offer, and I think we've reached that point with "loaded" 12 & 14 string pedal steels.

Donny, I completely second that. If someone has the ambition to play a 14-string, good for them though. I just have a hard time imagining that I will ever exhaust the potential from a 3x4 S10. Sometimes, it's not about doing more, but doing things better. Other than expanding your vocabulary, you can work on your timing, your speed, your tone, etc.

Lately I have been transcribing some Lloyd Green instrumentals, and the fact that he (and many other great steelers) didn't have a "drop E" on the 4th string has caused me to look for other ways to get the job done, using more of the second string, etc. All this to say, there are ways to get things done, even with a simple setup.

I guess I'm trying to justify to myself that I will likely never play the C6, and I'm wondering if other players have reached a similar conclusion.

[Pete Burak]

I guess I'm trying to justify to myself that I will likely never play the C6, and I'm wondering if other players have reached a similar conclusion.

A possible better way to think about it, is that you can play a ton of C6th stuff on S10-E9.
Put your bar on the first fret, lower your E's, and play strings 10,8,7,6,5,4,1.
That's the same basic grip as an open C6 tuning.
Release the E's, and play 9,8,7,6,5,4,1 and that is what Pedal 6 on C6 does (gives you an inversion of the IV7).
Move it up two frets for the V7.
Now you can play Choo Choo Cha Boogie, Smoke Smoke Smoke That Ciggarette, Rt. 66, and about 300 other tunes most guys play on C6th, on your E9th S10.
C6th players can test this out buy turning on both necks and strumming the C6th neck open, then strumming the E9th neck at 1st fret with E's lowered.
They're the same notes.

I think alot of newbs and S10 and Uni players alike find having an actual separate neck dedicated for this type of playing kinda overcomplicates things.

[Alex Cattaneo]

Thanks Pete, that's pretty much my line of thinking right now.

[Mark van Allen]

It's actually a lot of fun trying to work out C6 stuff on E9, I've learned a lot about the tuning by just hunting! While I love C6, and it does throw you into a different mindset to "switch necks", cervical problems and the number of upstairs gigs around here have got me appreciating single necks again. At least for me, on session work and gigging I find 14.5/17 of what I need on the E9. If I were playing western Swing, or in more classic country situations, it would be a different ball game. E9 is truly a brilliant tuning, and there's many lifetimes of study just on that one.
In a bigger stage situation, I'd be happy to bring along my D-8 Dual Pro and go for old-school C6.

[Ken Pippus]

Larry Behm's "Rockin' the Pockets" DVD gave me a completely different understanding of the multiple applications of C6.

http://www.aracnet.com/~lcbehm/

I think, good news or not, rock'n'roll is here to stay, and the C6 is a very nice horizontal Les Paul if you distort it up enough!

KP

[Michael Hummel]

As a band new PSG student (Sho-Bud D10) for 3 whole months now, I was sitting here wondering what the heck I would do with the C6 neck. My band plays mostly new country with a few classic country tunes thrown in.

I play mostly 6-string and keyboards, but steel on a handful of tunes. Well, we decided to try "Who's Cheatin' Who" and I thought I would try to learn Paul Franklin's solo break (I know, for a new player this is like entering the Olympics after running for a couple of days!) Hearing lots of 6 chords, I tried playing it on the C6 neck and came up with a pretty good version -- if not note-for-note, it captured the feeling pretty well.

The next day I did a bit of searching, and someone had done a tab of the solo on the E9 neck! I was blown away to even imagine this, but once I tried it out, it works out to make a lot more sense on the E9.

This was quite an education for me in many ways, and left me wondering once again what I will ever do with the C6 half of the guitar, other than looking impressive

Mike

[Jack Stoner]

Here's a youtube video of Paul Franklin on C6th with The Players "Coal Train Boogie".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCxa7wTn-oA

[b0b]

... and ETS only makes an E9 S10 model.

Not really true. I just took delivery of a new ETS S-10 4+5 set up as C6th for a customer. Same guitar as their E9th model, just a different copedent. It plays really well and sounds great.

I think that the only disadvantage of an S-10 E9th is the lack of low notes. If not for that, you could get almost all of the so-called "C6th sounds" from an E9th.

Here's a song I recorded on E9th a long time ago. It was a 12-string, but there were no "universal" or C6th pedals on the guitar, and I don't think I even used the bottom 2 strings except for on the last note. http://soundhost.net/2012/08/i-aint-got-the-blues/

[John Billings]

And then again,,,, someone might come up with a completely new tuning, that's even better suited to those of us who also have to play Blues and Rock. "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?"

[Alan Berdoulay]

You sure get a wide range of notes on that back neck.

[Franklin]

Why question the longevity of a tuning when its the musical vision of the player controlling what comes out of the tuning? Chet, BB, Beck, Clapton, Brent, Grady, Segovia, all use the same tuning.

PF

[Alex Cattaneo]

Guys, I certainly didn't mean to say that the C6 tuning is irrelevant. Maybe that's how it was understood but I'm well aware that many players are doing awesome things with this tuning, and far from me the idea to diminish or disregard that.

Paul (should I say M. Franklin? I'm a huge fan!), it's interesting that you mention guitar players, because that's where I come from, and the big difference there is that there is one dominant standard tuning and number of strings. There are creative musicians who use a myriad of alternate tunings, like Joni Mitchell, Leo Kotkke, etc, but there is a standard, which is not the case with pedal steel, not only in regards to the two necks but also the copedents, the number of strings, etc. And that's part of the beauty of the instrument!

I guess my post should have read "Is there a C6 neck in MY future?". But regardless, as usual, the discussion is very interesting and I appreciate everyone's input.

[Bill Cunningham]

Paul Franklin wrote:

Why question the longevity of a tuning when its the musical vision of the player controlling what comes out of the tuning? Chet, BB, Beck, Clapton, Brent, Grady, Segovia, all use the same tuning.

I agree! But on the other hand Paul, a few years ago, I thought you stated here on the forum that, if it wouldn't interfere with your livlihood, you might switch to a Universal. Or maybe, if you were starting today, you would start on the Universal. I may have this totally wrong but I seem to remember a comment along these lines and would appreciate your thoughts.

AND, thank you so much for your contributions here!

[Mark van Allen]

Bringing up the variety of 6 string expression raised a question for me- while there are a number of (mainly rockers) who have a second guitar on stage for open-tuning slide tunes, and a number of acoustic performers who use multiple tunings, by far the largest percentage of 6 string players use just the one tuning, even across multiple guitars.
I see the doubleneck as being to some degree a remnant of the multi-neck non-pedal days when the "steeler" was expected to be a master of multiple tunings. This part of historicity is really embedded in the steel culture, although I see more and more younger players starting on singlenecks. I understand and embrace the inspiration that a different tuning brings to performance and expression- but I think the "historical imperative" has a lot to do with why you see so many people playing on one neck of a double.
From a "show" perspective, I would think the audience would be more impressed with multiple guitars- as Paul had onstage with Dire Straits. With a few exceptions, the steeler's choices seem to have been more about inward expression than overt showmanship. Although the days of inlaid names on the front apron may return!

[John Billings]

Pedal steel is a very, very young instrument. There may be tuning changes that none of us can currently imagine. Only time will tell.

[Jack Aldrich]

Like a lot of steelers, I started with a single neck PSG, first an Emmons with 3 pedals and 1 level, which was pretty limiting, so I bought a single neck 3/4 ShoBud Pro I from Red Rhodes, which I used from 1975 'til 1988, playing professionally full time. Jeff Newman and Buddy Emmons had courses on how to play C6-like on an E9 neck which served me well. I traded my Pro I for a D10 Pro III, which I used until 2001, when I bought my Carter 8/5. I still like to play "Panhandle Rag" and "San Antonio Rose" on my E9 neck, although I pften switch to the C6 for improvisation. I agree with the other folks who say that starting with a single E9 steel is easier. E9 is logical, with the A pedal raising strings 5 and 10, the B pedal raising strings 3 and 6, and (on my steels) the RKL left knee lowers the 4th and 8th strings. When I asked Buddy what logic was behind pedal and knee throws on the C6 neck, he said "and then a miracle happens - just learn it". - Jack

[Alan Brookes]

I use C6 more than E9, but, then, I'm not going to be buying a new pedal steel at any time in the immediate future, so the builders can supply whatever the market demands.
I often wonder what proportion of steel guitarists are members of the Forum. 25%?

[Daniel Morris]

When I bought my MSA U12 back in '79, the concept of a single tuning incorporating a double neck pedal steel was (as far as I know) rather new. But as Ken Metcalf mentions, the potential for playing a 6th tuning was always there on the E9 - just lowering the 4 + 8 (E) strings a half step, plus the 9th string D was already there. My understanding was that the mechanism for a triple raise/lower hadn't evolved early on, but once it had become a reality, there was very little that you couldn't get on a single neck. Of course, the first string pitch was changed, but that's another issue, and I firmly believe that thinking of a single neck as a single, full tuning is the best route. I mix major 9th chords from the "6th mode" right into my playing in the "E9th mode". Done. Don't see the point of a separate neck, and maybe builders don't either.