Rate brands of pedal steel guitars

[Ken Byng]

I know it is subjective but if one wants the PP Emmons tone just crank the treble up on the amp.I played a E PP years ago while my ZB was being worked on and was so happy to get my old ZB back. To my ears it was too tinny sounding, but i wasn't playing country. Thought i would throw this in, Now you can throw it back out.lol Tracy

Tracy
The Emmons push pull sound is much more than having a very bright top end. You can't emulate the sustain or that 'sparkle' on every string at all points on the fret board merely by altering the EQ on the amp. My push pull has a full tone and is certainly not tinny.

The reason why I say there is no best guitar is because of the variances in tone between instruments from the same manufacturer. Find a good one and its a keeper, but the badge on the front is no automatic guarantee with any guitar that it will be a great sounder. That's the wonder of wood I guess.

[Franklin]

Ed, ......I can hear transparency and the abscence of it in the note and so does the room full of players and engineers......The only test we use is a microphone in front of the amp in the studio on a full track. A guitar either has it or it does not.

My conclusion from those tests........The guitars with the best sounding non transparent tone were the ones that vibrated throughout the entire body...The more vibrations the better they sounded through the amp, into the microphone, and onto the recording device........The ones that did not vibrate much beyond the string were also the guitars with tone transparency and disappeared somewhat in the track at fill level.


Lane

Yes, tonally there are best brands. Look at the history of which guitars were consistently used by all of the studio cats and you'll get a consensus.

Paul

[David Mason]

As a longtime bass player, who sort-of prides myself on playing as little as possible like Jaco & Stanley Clarke, this issue of "cutting through the mix" can hit me somewhere between peevish & odious. When a singer is singing, the band is supposed to BE the mix. When a soloist is soloing, I'd sure hope that not everyone else is stomping on their boost pedals so that they can all "cut through the mix." It becomes the instrumental equivalent of Alvin and the Chipmunks, with a frisson of free jazz thrown in.

In the slam-bam-thank-you-ma'am modern radio country music, the steel guitar is often inaudible except for a few squeaks signifying to the listeners that they are, indeed, country(mixed with a quarter-bar of fiddle, one tele lick and three banjo notes). When was the last time you heard an actual instrumental solo?!? But, steel players used to "pad" and "fill" quite regularly, as a part of the mix. If every player in the band is going for maximum mix-transcending shock value at all times, it gets to be at least as tiring to listen to as the aforementioned Chipmunks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEdBbnXa ... 22B8F7F424

[Franklin]

David,

Comparing steels to basses? Let's discuss basses with dead spots which is a known problem with recording various bass brands in the studio? That is a direct comparison to cutting through the mix and steel guitars. You did reference the art of New Country's low level mixing and playing Jaco-esque solos....Personally, I fail to see how those two issues are relevant to a topic about an instruments tone.....Any great tonal instrument can be mixed into obscurity but that is a totally different topic from the curiosity about which instruments sound best.

Almost all main basses used in the studio come from the Fender Precision, Fender Jazz, Gibson, Pensa Sur, and Sadowsky lines....The best players use them to record because they virtually have no dead spots and their fat tone is evenly distributed or balanced in volume across the fretboard...Those instruments cut through the mix without raising its volume to solo level...With a great recording bass, the bassist has no worries about getting lost if he goes up the neck for a little gem....Same with certain brands of steel guitars.

Paul

[Joseph Meditz]

My conclusion from those tests........The guitars with the best sounding non transparent tone were the ones that vibrated throughout the entire body...The more vibrations the better they sounded through the amp, into the microphone, and onto the recording device........The ones that did not vibrate much beyond the string were also the guitars with tone transparency and disappeared somewhat in the track at fill level.

I'd like to take a scientific wild assed guess as to why this makes sense and is true, besides the fact that PF and BE say so

If you start with a vibrating string, as Ed said, anything it sets into vibration takes energy away from the string. The parts of the guitar that resonate at any of its harmonics will attenuate those harmonics of the string. In essence, it filters out harmonics from the string.

So why should this sound better? If you allow the imperfect analogy of a string being like the color white, you can imagine how removing harmonic components will give it color. However, since things that rob harmonics from the string resonate with those harmonics, as you play different notes, the tonal color will change. Also, that which is robbed from the string may vibrate the body and hence the pickup and create a change in phase of the harmonic when it sums with that of the string in the pickup. So, this is not simple filtering as obtained by an equalizer. This all interacts in a complex way.

Lastly, besides grabbing the legs to see how much they vibrate, another good guitar test is to observe how much the tone changes as you pick close to and away from the bridge. The more the change, the more alive the instrument seems to me.

[Ken Metcalf]

Put your ear up against the leg and listen or just listen in a live situation.
When I first played a PP I thought I want one of those.
That is what I have been after.

[Lane Gray]

Paul, did I have it fairly accurate when I said that list (guitars of the studio cats) would be predominantly Franklins and push-pulls, with some Buds thrown in, maybe a few ZBs, and a Zum or two, and most of the rest hardly a blip?

[Johan Jansen]

I hope that Paul will answer this question..

Is it so that a good pedalsteel, tuned well, played well, is going to sound better after a lot of playing, like a spanish guitar or flattop or even my strat does? Or ist this just that I get used to the sound and avoid week spots? Or does tonal qualities develop in the instruments during the years?
Curious,,

regards, Johan

[Peter Nylund]

Another useless input from a nobody like me. I can only speak for the brands of guitars that I have owned or own. My rating includes both studio work and live gigs.
1. Carter D-10 (best sound, very little cabinet drop)
2. MCI D-10 (good sound, but a bit stiff action)
3. Mullen SD10 RP (superb playability, but lacks in sustain)
4. Mullen D-10 Pre RP (decent sound, stiff action, too much cabinet drop)
5. Carter S-10 (lightweight, good sustain)
6. Fender (Sho-Bud) D-10 (overall nice guitar, except for the pot metal parts)
7. AWH S-10 (string eating cardboard guitar)

Peter

[Franklin]

I hope that Paul will answer this question..

Is it so that a good pedalsteel, tuned well, played well, is going to sound better after a lot of playing, like a spanish guitar or flattop or even my strat does? Or ist this just that I get used to the sound and avoid week spots? Or does tonal qualities develop in the instruments during the years?
Curious,,

regards, Johan

Johan,

A great sounding axe sounds great from day one and gets sweeter as it ages.....Weak spots and transparent tone are there from day one......A builder never knows for sure which guitar will be that special one, if they did they would make them all special. They can however create a design that even the worst of their lot sounds great and better than other brands due to design.....One thing for sure, trial and error with a big set of ears is the only one way to get there.....

George and Ed,

You both are mistaken if you truly believe a designer of instruments can use or should use a computer program to discern the tonal nuance of specific ideas or concepts... I would go with a musicians ears over any programs diagnostic capabilities......... If for no other reason than this.......A computer doesn't buy what builders are selling....and no number of tests trying to prove to professional musicians there's virtually no difference between your brand and theirs will ever win them over...Especially once they conclude with their ears there is something in the tone of your concept(s) they don't like.

Lane,

To answer your question.......This is the history according to my knowledge.....The PP was one, The permanent Sho-Buds was the other of the two brands that dominated the 60's era.....They were the chosen sword and their tone set a precedent for the future of steel guitars.......Other guitars from that era......Marlen was mentioned but I honestly don't know of any session players who used one, the same with the early MSA.....and ZB made some headway with Rusty Young, Brumley, and Jim Murphy......Fender was still being used, not sure when they discontinued building them though, by session guys Chalker, Mooney, Jay McDonald, Red Rhodes, and Bigsby's and Fenders dominated the 50's era. That's it as far as I know.... The Franklin entered the studio scene as a studio players main axe in the 80's through Hal, Stu Basore, Mike Duchette, and I. Now Bouton, Currie, and Johnson also record with a Franklin and an Emmons......Buddy has consistently recorded with the Blade through the years and has taken each of the endorsed brands into the studio....how often and on which sessions he would have to say and also he would have to comment on if they trumped "the Blade's" tone. Jay Dee, the PP....Sasser...The PP.....Weldon, the PP....Sonny, The PP, Seymour, the PP and Bud's, Lloyd the Sho-Bud, Drake, the Sho-Bud, Dugmore, the Sho-Bud and now a Show Pro.......The next guitar to consistently make it into the studio scene here is the Show-Pro....With Tommy White, Russ Pahl, Mike Daly, Dugmore, and others using it...... Honorable mentions would be the Zum ,Robbie Turner here and Tommy in the Atlanta studio scene..and also the JCH......I'm not sure about how much they were used and by whom and for how long.....I do know the JCH was used by John on Conway's, "Lost In The Feeling".

Bottom line the session players gig is very competitive because thats where most of the money is earned.....The studio players gig is on the line every day. They never know when its their last call. The engineers and musicians rely on each other for input.....They'll walk over and tell you about an amp, an effects pedal, a guitar that is great sounding......If they don't tell them their axe is great sounding consistently which they do if it is, they better change guitars to stay competitive......Remember the tone of the instrument can play an important part in the overall sound of the artist........Brent's Tele and Alan Jackson, Don Rich and Buck Owens, Drake and Jones......Even though the music doesn't dictate uniqueness as much as it once did, producers and engineers still are aware of that importance and they still hire players who they perceive as having the best sounding gear for the project.

Paul

[Lane Gray]

First, thanks, Paul. That's about what I thought.

My objection to studying the sound of a steel guitar with a computer is that you first have to know what to look for. So whoever programs the meta analysis had better no darn well what exactly they are looking for, because I am willing to bet that any sonic difference between The Blade and my 1980 push-pull (lost to a burglar, dammit), or somebody's push-pull that comes close, would be quantifiable, but pretty damn subtle. I suppose you could find it, but it sounds neither fun nor rewarding.

Maybe some of Levitin's brain and ear toys could find what makes the ear go ¡Zing!...

Then once you quantify the nature of Blade tone, then you'd have to figure out HOW to build to create it. And if Ron Lashley and crew couldn't make them all sound like that, I don't see a lot of chance of success in others trying.

The goal won't contain a map

[Dickie Whitley]

I'm not trying to step on anybodies toes or start a flame war here, but my opinion is, if you're not trying to get into the "glitzy" world of being a session artist, get what you can afford that sounds good to you and go play for fun.

If you really want to go chase that dream of being a session artist, then please be prepared for the expense and heartache of the journey.

While I deeply respect Buddy, Paul, and the others who have been able to make that transition, there are only so many "slots" available, so the number that can "make it" is limited. From what Paul describes, it's a "dog eat dog" business, doesn't sound like much fun to me.

But to the main theme, the best brand is the one that sounds best and plays best for you. I think it's a very individual thing. To me a "best" contest always smacks of "my steel is better than your steel" type of snobbery. Live and let live.

[Lane Gray]

I'd agree, Dickie.
There's also that most of the producers that hire are looking for "That Tone." If that's not your top criteria, then things open up a bit.

Few would argue that Franklin's not at the top of the heap mechanically.
If you're not after That Tone, heck, they're all fairly similar in quality and I'd choose by features
Quick-change pickups? I think that's just MSA.
lacewood mica? Zum. (that's purty)
I wanna know if anybody makes mica tone in a lacquered body. But I don't think so

[Tracy Sheehan]

I better back up some and correct my post about the PP tone. Maybe i should have said the E PP sounded tinny to my ears after getting used to the ZB. I know very well the human ear is very fickel. I was more used to the Chalker type tone as i said before. I wasn't playing country
I won't go into that again but i posted some time back part of a article Korg had on the subject of tuning. It was about how at times you just can't seem to get in tune even when you are. And other times you can be a little out of tune but sound in tune.
Years ago when i was playing twin fiddles at times i would get the other fiddle player to tune my fiddle and visa versa. And i noticed at times my tone seemd to change even when i wasn't using an amp. That used to happen quite often to other bands also. It was that fickle ear. I am speaking of up to 50 years plus ago before computers and ,voice correctors electronic tuners,ect. I just don't know how to explain it but so many worry over things now days that never entered our little pointy heads back then .Tracy

BTW. I also did some recording for artists in Nashville 50 years or so ago. We went in the studio the A&R man gave us some idea what he wanted and it went from there. Usually all night. Nothing was ever said about the steel. The a&r man would get the sound he wanted. Suppose i forget at times every thing is so different now days. I was using a Fender 1000 the same as Chalker did big hits on big steel on a F1000. As i recall he did it to be onry and show things could be done well even if you wasn't playing a Sho Bud which was the steel at that time. He set behind a sho bud for the album cover as i remember. The drummer i had been working the road with played on that recording.

[Joseph Meditz]

It's hard to understand the negative reaction to taking measurements of a PSG and analyzing it on a computer. It is additional data and, when combined with experience and listening, can only help.

So far the discussion has been about computer signal analysis. But mechanical analysis and modeling also can only improve a design. For instance, cabinet drop can be known before any work is started and designed out. Maybe then builders would begin publishing these numbers!

PSG building is not a black art. And doing things "Old School" is just a waste of time and probably the reason why so many modern steels are clones.

We know that the Schild design starts with CAD. Just look at the result! And while I have no knowledge at all on this, from the looks of them, I would guess that MSA uses CAD as well as signal analysis tools for their steels.

If I were building PSGs I would not chase the tone of a PP or any particular brand. Instead I would endeavor to create a guitar that has its own tonal beauty, sui generis.

[Dickie Whitley]

Joseph, while I can appreciate where you were going with your post, I'm not sure that's ever going to be.

First of all, what you suggested is going to cost a lot of money and time invested before the first part is ever made. That being said, the pedal steel guitar market is a very small one in relation to selling something like cars, boats, houses, or even six string guitars. We're probably talking a market of thousands, but not 10s of thousands, or 100s of thousands and certainly not millions. What price would you have to set on your instrument to recover that research and development cost? Consider MSAs are $5k or better for a D10 model, and Franklins can be even more. Even single necks are $3.5K and up depending on setup.

Also a consideration perhaps, take a look at the list of manufacturers already present, there may be too many for the market to bear now. Time will tell on that.

To me, this "tone" thing is and always has been a subjective issue, and will always be so. What you think is the "bomb" of "tone", might be the epitome of awful to me.

Get yourself out and listen to, play, "kick the tires" so to speak of a steel you're interested in. If it plays and sounds good to you, and you're happy with it, then that's the one for you regardless of who's name is on it. This "best" thing has always been BS to me, and just somebody trying to make everybody else feel bad on what they can afford. Just because it costs more doesn't mean it will sound any better. Sometimes there is still a lot of the R&D cost being recovered in that price, has nothing to do with the sum of the parts in the guitar.

[Bobby Hearn]

In my opinion, the lack of doing things "old school" anymore is the reason most products built today are cheap throwaways.

[Frank Montmarquet]

I only buy "new School" cars and SUVs. I have not had to replace a radiator, starter or alternator in about 25 yrs, and routinely get well over 130,000 miles. Will never buy an old school car again.

[Frank Montmarquet]

We have a list of what the studio pros use. Now, what do the touring pros use? They might have different requirements.

[Robert Daniels]

Im am a newbie to pedal steel, but a lifelong 6 string player and recording engineer. To the above poster I say, respectfully, that 130,000 mile is not a lot of miles for a well made vintage car. If I had an old Dodge Dart that died after less than 200,000, I would call it a lemon! Again, with respect...

I think an equally valid question re brand would be "vintage vs. modern". I realize that pedal steel is a different beast and relies a lot more on mechanics than a 6 string. But when I sat behind my admittedly beat-to-hades Emmons student model, I heard something special and knew I had to have it. I am putting a lot of money into getting the mechanics into order, but the sound is so special to me that I don't care. With 6-stringers, I have always felt that no matter how well done the "re-issue" is, it may play like a million bucks, but never has the same sound and feel as a good original - even if the oldie has been ridden hard and put away - well, never! Everyone likes what they like and I would not rule out a new guitar, but if I wanted my ultimate guitar I would tend to look for a great oldie. To me, there is no substitute. Some instruments just have it. Of course, just one opinion.

[Robert Daniels]

I should also say that I am a big believer in science and technology. Someday, maybe soon, we will figure out what makes an old instrument sound different - maybe the fact that 1000's of E chords have aligned the grain in the wood in a special way (as I have heard theorized). I would probably be as sad as happy to be able to buy a '57 Tele or 67' D10 off the shelf for cheap.

[David Mason]

Dickie Whitley caused a couple of thought to burble up on me, with this:

What price would you have to set on your instrument to recover that research and development cost? Consider MSAs are $5k or better for a D10 model, and Franklins can be even more. Even single necks are $3.5K and up depending on setup.

Also a consideration perhaps, take a look at the list of manufacturers already present, there may be too many for the market to bear now. Time will tell on that.

In looking at the rather tiny differences among the "industrial-grade" pedal steels, it would seem that the Research & Development stage is already essentially done. Of course a certain steel might have the pedal ball joints in a different location, and Williams have their ramps for the strings, one person may put use more wood and less metal (and vice-versa for the next fellow). And attention to detail is crucial, but nobody is looking to tear down all the rules and start with a blank page - not when the rules can rather dependably lead to a good instrument. In fact, Bud Carter, who was in the thick of it, seems to be heading in the direction of simpler, simpler, if the trajectory of MSA->MCI->Carter->ETS says anything.

And I agree that there seems to be a whole lot of new steel makers these days, and I'm sure more than a few are wondering if they zigged when they should've zagged. But that kind of very small operation might actually be better at weathering a recession/depression/Mayan Doomsday, because they're not likely to be "overcapitalized" (AKA "in debt up to their eyeballs"). What's the wait time for a Zum or Rittenberry or Excel or Franklin? Somebody's keeping busy.

[Johan Jansen]

I believe in a guitar with character. If a new brand-x all-pull came out that sounds 'just like a push-pull', I would go for the real push-pull. If it has a sound of its own, and I would like it, I would go for that one, and not for a look-alike.

Johan

[Larry Ray Miller]

I an an old student of Jeff Newman. Jeff owned at least one each of the major brands, and sounded great on all of them. I attended one of his classes in the mid 80's in Hermitage, TN. An older gentleman in the class was trying to learn. When Jeff ask for any questions the man said " Jeff you have that expensive guitar, and all I have is this Sho-Bud Student model. I can't possibly sound very good".

Jeff jumped up and unpluged his guitar, and set it off to the side. He walked over and set the man's Sho-Bud on the stage, and tuned a little. Then he started playing a beautiful song. The gentleman jumped up with a recorder, and shouted into it" listen Martha that is Jeff Newman playiong my guitar."
I am sure there are small sound differences, but I can't hear a lot. I believe that most of the sound is in the hands of the master.

There was a girl in the class. I think that it was Donna Hammit who later played in Bill Anderson's all girl band. I am not sure.

[Lane Gray]

I believe in a guitar with character. If a new brand-x all-pull came out that sounds 'just like a push-pull', I would go for the real push-pull. If it has a sound of its own, and I would like it, I would go for that one, and not for a look-alike.

Johan

Johan, I'd say the knockoffs can have character as well.
And also certain of the big names can be sterile. Thanks to variances in wood grain, screw tension (hell, for all I know, different adhesion of laminate to wood plays a part), every axe sounds a bit different.

If you're gonna buy second-hand, play THAT SPECIMEN first.
If you have one custom-made, then I don't know what you'd do if the tone didn't make you happy.