Rate brands of pedal steel guitars

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 4 Jul 2012 4:53 am

Franklin wrote: ...transfers tone in a non transparent

Paul, can you please explain what you mean by 'non-transparent' way?

Thanks,
Jim

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Jul 2012 7:24 am

Jim,

I'm talking about incremental nuance here and am in no way saying what I hear is what you will hear, or even like....I'm also basing this transparency conclusion from my personal experiences listening to many brands live and in the studio on various instruments played by many including myself.......

....When recorded and mixed at the same level some instruments (fiddles, guitars, steels, mandolins, etc.) tend to get lost in the mix compared to other brands, especially when more instruments are added to the initial rhythm section. By themselves or when mixed at an instrumental level (As loud as the vocal) they all sound fairly clear and distinct....But when you add a lot of instruments, strings, horns, and set the instrument at fill or backup level they lose some distinction.......Same thing happens in club settings. In Nashville in the 60's and 70's we had a club called the DeeMans Den..It was a jam spot and at any time you could hear as many as 5 steel guitarists going at it..They were all pros and most balanced their volume to the next guy......Consistently anyone playing a PP cut through clearly and distinctly at the back of the room....while other guitars like the two brands I played prior to getting a PP were not as distinct and lost something by the time the sound hit the back walls......That's why I had no choice but to switch to the PP. No amp, or whatever could make those other guitars sustain and cut through like the PP.......Buddy named his main PP "the Blade". Out of all the guitars I heard him gig with, it was the one that clearly cut through the way it sounded as he was playing it on stage in settings like this. Some instruments just have that non-transparent thing....And sometimes its not brand specific....for instance my orange Bud was really transparent while my Blue Bud was not....Unfortunately it did not sustain as long as the PP's my friends owned which was also a style factor I was after....That part of its sound bothered me.

Have you ever stood next to an amp and hear a guy get this big fat sound and then walk to the back of the room and what you hear is mostly the top end of the stages round sound....Or, listen to Curlys " Big Hits on Big Steel" sessions and then listen to "More Ways To Play"....Same player, same dark tone, different level of distinct clarity...To my ears Curly never equalled the clarity of his recorded works on the Fender.....Those old Hank Thompson sessions and Big Hits were his benchmarks of tone.....It is really hard to describe tone nuance with words but hopefully I helped to define the meaning of a transparent tone.

Paul

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 4 Jul 2012 7:45 am

Thanks, Paul. So, in a nutshell, "non-transparent" refers to its ability to cut through the rest of the band with clarity, yes? And "transparent" means it kinda gets lost in the mix (becomes kind of "invisible"), yes?

Thanks,
Jim

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 4 Jul 2012 8:00 am

Donny Hinson wrote: It amazes me how many players are impressed by very simple things, polished metal and simple wood finishing, while they completely miss other aspects or touches that are equally simple, but totally glaring in their absence: Knee levers that aren't rounded on the edges, pedal boards without improved fastenings, knee levers that can't easily be moved, pickups that don't plug in, guitars with no volume or tone controls, guitars with slotted pullers that require a dingus to retain them, guitars with too many or too few pulling adjustments, pedals that can't be moved or adjusted easily, guitars with no place to set your picks and bar, guitars with tuning keys too close together, guitars without sliding or movable pickups, expensive guitars with cheap fretboards and nameplates, totally boring (boxy) designs, cases without wheels, cases that are far too heavy, guitars with "open" changers that love to catch string ends...and the list just goes on and on.

Interesting, I think we can all agree on many of these aspects mentioned by Donny, but never forget that each of those ditty's adds cost to an already expensive proposition...

Is there a best ? Probably , but like everything else, is price point relevant ?

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 4 Jul 2012 9:37 am

Paul, That was a great, understandable explanation. I have heard this without really identifying it as such, but now I know what I was hearing.

For a long time I went to see the Western Swing Authority with PeeWee Charles on his LeGrande III. I would listen and report to PeeWee (Ed Ringwald) what I thought of his tone. Up close it was quite hard to distinguish anything - there was this huge wall of sound from all the instruments. I would go to the men's room and listen at the sound coming at me thru two walls. There I could hear much better how the steel was cutting through. Also, I had the opportunity to hear him play a borrowed Carter and the difference was quite distinguishable to me. While the Emmons came through the walls with clarity and rich tone, the Carter was not cutting through as well. Of course, my observation. Ears and opinions differ...

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 4 Jul 2012 9:43 am

Franklin wrote:Brint,

Almost every design change will affect the tone of any instrument...

Paul, since your response is addressed to me, are you suggesting that securing the pedal rack so that, in addition to being tightly clamped to the legs, it would be physically prevented from sliding along them (the only design element I specifically spoke to) would affect the tone of the instrument?

For example, if I stopped adjusting the legs on my Sho-Bud so that the rubber foot is against the pedal rack, would you expect a change in tone?

Don Drummer · Post by **Don Drummer** » 4 Jul 2012 10:24 am

When I try the yet to be invented all push guitar I'll have an opinion.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Jul 2012 11:02 am

Brint Hannay wrote:
Franklin wrote:Brint,

Almost every design change will affect the tone of any instrument...
Paul, since your response is addressed to me, are you suggesting that securing the pedal rack so that, in addition to being tightly clamped to the legs, it would be physically prevented from sliding along them (the only design element I specifically spoke to) would affect the tone of the instrument?

For example, if I stopped adjusting the legs on my Sho-Bud so that the rubber foot is against the pedal rack, would you expect a change in tone?

I actually meant to quote Donny's post, not yours.....I will say this to your question.....A guitars tone is created from the sum of "all" of its parts and how it sounds is also due to how it is assembled. However small the difference a pedal bar mount might contribute, I'll go to the extreme to make the point, A rubber pedal bar mounted as you suggest would actually dampen the legs vibration due to its lack of resonating qualities so in that sense even the pedal bar and the way its attached plays a very small part in the overall sound......What some of you seem to have difficulty understanding is that in the best sounding steels the whole instrument vibrates or resonates at the tips of the legs once the strings are played....Some call that the circle of sound. So its everything combined and no single source that brings about the sustaining tones of any particular brand......And yes, some areas contribute more than others towards the tonal issues of pedal steel guitars.

Paul

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 4 Jul 2012 11:27 am

every action has a reaction. every movement of any thing, no matter how minute, affects the entire universe due to mass, gravity, energy transfer, etc.
however, as in steel guitar design differences, some of this may be hard to determine by the human sensitivity.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 4 Jul 2012 2:40 pm

Franklin wrote:A guitars tone is created from the sum of "all" of its parts and how it sounds is also due to how it is assembled. However small the difference a pedal bar mount might contribute, I'll go to the extreme to make the point, A rubber pedal bar mounted as you suggest would actually dampen the legs vibration due to its lack of resonating qualities so in that sense even the pedal bar and the way its attached plays a very small part in the overall sound......What some of you seem to have difficulty understanding is that in the best sounding steels the whole instrument vibrates or resonates at the tips of the legs once the strings are played....Some call that the circle of sound. So its everything combined and no single source that brings about the sustaining tones of any particular brand......And yes, some areas contribute more than others towards the tonal issues of pedal steel guitars.

Paul

Paul,
So does this mean that the guitar should be allowed to vibrate as freely as possible, without any control as to this vibration?
Does it mean that one can never get enough vibration?
I agree that things such as rubber and plastic are detriments to those vibrations and I use those at a minimum.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 4 Jul 2012 4:36 pm

Franklin wrote: Tone and tunability in a design is all that matters to me.....It is crucially important that an instrument sustains and transfers tone in a non transparent way so I can capture the sounds I hear in my head. Paul

Eloquently put!.......tone trumps everything else.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Jul 2012 5:17 pm

Bent you asked:
So does this mean that the guitar should be allowed to vibrate as freely as possible, without any control as to this vibration?
Does it mean that one can never get enough vibration?
I agree that things such as rubber and plastic are detriments to those vibrations and I use those at a minimum.

Yes, to all of your questions......

If the strings sound comes from vibrating? Why would anyone ever try to stop the string and the instrument from vibrating?

Paul

Frank Montmarquet · Post by **Frank Montmarquet** » 4 Jul 2012 5:24 pm

What brands do the top studio players use?
What brands do the top touring pros use?

If you can answer those questions you will have a list of the best PSGs.

Of course it's possible that the best PSG musicians don't use the best guitars...because...??

John Palumbo · Post by **John Palumbo** » 4 Jul 2012 5:25 pm

Someone posted in the last few days about the slap that can occur (he originally thought it was pull rods) when the rack slips downward and snaps back up. Yes, if you tighten the clamp really well this doesn't happen, but it seems as though a fail-safe design would be simple enough to implement.

This occurred on a Carter I owned, every time you would press the pedals an annoying clacking sound occurred,I could not figure out where it was coming from. I couldn't get rid of it no matter how much I tried tightening the pedal bar wing nuts, you could see the pedal bar slide up ever so slightly & knocking against the tightening clamp of the leg when the pedal(s) were depressed it something that was very annoying about that guitar.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 4 Jul 2012 10:12 pm

Franklin wrote:
Yes, to all of your questions......

If the strings sound comes from vibrating? Why would anyone ever try to stop the string and the instrument from vibrating?

Paul

Paul, thanks for confirming what I thought you meant.

Dale Kath · Post by **Dale Kath** » 5 Jul 2012 5:21 am

Frank, that makes a lot of sense. Check out the pros to see the best. Now, if I only had their bank roll!

Brian Herder · Post by **Brian Herder** » 5 Jul 2012 8:31 am

I think that the "typical" pro player is in the same boat as anyone else, finacially speaking. Having good eguipment is all part of the cost of doing business.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 5 Jul 2012 11:49 am

To the original poster. Quite simply there is no 'best guitar', and it is utterly impossible to universally rank them. I could never place my steel guitars in order of preference as they all have their strong points and not so strong points. Just rejoice in the fact that the choice of steel guitars is better now than it every has been.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 Jul 2012 12:20 pm

Frank Montmarquet wrote:What brands do the top studio players use?
What brands do the top touring pros use?

If you can answer those questions you will have a list of the best PSGs.

Of course it's possible that the best PSG musicians don't use the best guitars...because...??

Well, Paul records with a Franklin. Mike Johnson records with one. A list of the top recorders would reveal probably mostly Franklins and push-pulls, with a few Buds, Zums, Mullen, et c. thrown in. Obviously, the retro classic folks like the guy with Dale Watson or Ricky W. will stick to Buds. Or guitars that have that sound.

Franklins are pretty pricy, both due to their quality and the fact that Paul Sr is in no hurry to build them. I talked to him last week, a great guy to talk to, and he's still building and taking orders. Their rarity means that a used one in good shape is worth a new one (but good luck finding an owner willing to part with it), escalating rather than depreciating.

From the fact that Fulawka's guitars also seem to hold slightly more than their value, I guess you could put them in that class

Push-pulls haven't been made, at least by Emmons, in 20 years. Unless you want a Promat or Lone Star, that design is out.

Every other builder seems to chase that Blade tone in an all-pull guitar.
To my ears, they all sound similar, but not the same. I sound like me at any of them, Bobby will sound like Bobby, Gary will sound like Gary, with personal differences trumping guitar differences.

Obviously, idiosyncratic guitars (i.e. ones not building exactly in the same wagon tracks, such as the Hatton ZB, Desert Rose or Simmons) will have different tone.

But the kinks have pretty well been worked out of the all-pull design.

Like Ken just said, I don't think you can really call one "Best" with the possible exceptions of Franklin or Anapeg, and neither come up often for sale used, Anapeg is no longer made, and the Franklin has a waitlist.

The rest are nearly equal, so choose your features. My three favorites (of those willing to build my next guitar) are MSA, Williams, and Mullen, in no particular order. It woulda been a Franklin, but he won't make another 12 after the 2 on the waitlist.

Mel Bergman · Post by **Mel Bergman** » 5 Jul 2012 12:29 pm

Howdy folks,

These discussions are always fun. What I have found over the years is that, in general, most musicians have not had the opportunity to experience a truly exceptional musical instrument. Most, I would imagine, have played good to very good to maybe even great instruments.

What I am talking about is the exceptional instrument. And I know that exceptional is itself a subjective description, but for the sake of this discussion, please play along.

As Franklin postulated, ALL of the components of an instrument contribute to the sound. What I have found is that an "exceptional" instrument has a resonance that cannot be described. It truly has to be felt to understand. I have several early steels, six strings and basses that are just beyond ordinary, at least for me.

And certainly age of the instrument is not a requisite, but I'm sure that it does not hurt.. Once you get a taste for the sublime joy of such a beast, well, it is very hard to truly enjoy playing a more pedestrian instrument.

So I guess the upshot is, if you hear a killer instrument, or know of one, try to see if you can sit behind it, strum it, blow it, pluck it, etc. to try to understand what I am saying. I haven't played a Stradivarius, but I am guessing that resonance is the fact behind the legend. Just hazarding a guess.

Mel

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 5 Jul 2012 1:25 pm

Lane and Mel,

Excellent summations......Mel you are absolutely on the mark...Once someone plays an exceptional instrument they will no longer state "There is no best" instrument......I thought my PP was as good as any PP until I sat behind Randy Reinhardt's PP and "The Blade"......After that my once content Push Pull brain left me wanting something more from it...I became frustrated with its absence of what those two guitars had.....

Paul

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 5 Jul 2012 1:37 pm

Yes, Paul, but even amongst all the push-pull Emmons guitars, some individuals stand out, just like I'd assume a few Marlen guitars exceeded and some fell short.
Jimmy Martin's D-45 rang like none other.
But is there a better make than others? Save your dad's guitars, and perhaps Anapeg and Fulawka (both of which hold their full value or do better), I'm not sure there's a consensus.
Perhaps Zum, Mullen and Fessenden hold the next tier, staying a bit higher.
But is resale price a measure of innate quality, or perceived quality? In other words, are they actually better, or merely more fashionable?

PS: Why do I sound like Hankey?

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 5 Jul 2012 3:18 pm

Speaking of "ring". Lane Hankey has a nice ring to it.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 5 Jul 2012 4:46 pm

Re theme of vibrations in the legs etc. Apply some "modal analysis" to the "structure". The poor mans approach can be to use contact mic's fed into An FSA ($100. software) to find the frequency(s) and magnitude(s)of the vibrations at each section of the "structure).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_analysis

Before having the BEAST built, we did Finite Element Modeling (FEM) on the various parts, and on the combined parts.

The only source of energy in the "structure" is the vibration induced into the strings by the player. Any vibration felt/sensed in the various locations in the structure must take away from the vibrations of the strings. What is left goes thru the pickup (another filter), the amp, and the speaker to the listener.

RE "best"...I first a Stella, then I played a Martin...nuff said? I had a Harmony arch top, then I played a Stromberg = no contest!

Which is/was best the Martin or the Stromberg?

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 5 Jul 2012 4:58 pm

Lane Gray wrote:The axes that, to my mind, stand out:
Williams, with that "ramp" on the back side of the finger to reduce string breakage
GFI, for its aesthetics. It just LOOKS different. I'll withhold judgment til I play one.
Jackson, with some different things going on with the changer.
Emmons, with that counterforce thing.
Simmons, with the throwback pull-release changer. Different to tune, but pull-release has a different and sweet tone,
Promat from Serbia, with its clone of the push-pull Emmons
One maker (I forget who, I've been doing a lot of shopping this last week) uses ball bearings instead of Delrin bushings at the end of his cross shafts.
I forgot to mention the Zum hybrid. Another worthy entry
In general, I daresay that if you had a room full of various guitars, Emmons, Ritts, Zums, Mullen, Rains, the list goes on, all with TrueTone (or a Telonics 206), each player would sound close to the same on each of them. The differences would come player-to-player.

A big difference is in the aesthetics from one make to another, but most of the makers will hang their mechanisms in a Mark Giles cabinet, so at the upper end, even THAT distinction goes away.

Personally, the aesthetics that moves me most is Williams.
I've stated elsewhere that I'm saving up for a new guitar, but I've got a bit under two years (around 5500 for premium aesthetics and I'm setting aside 60/week) before I can order. Either this Labor Day or next, before I order, I'm gonna spend some time at Scotty's convention, playing the top contenders that are willing to make my goofy guitar.
While people may have favorites, I don't think even the partisans would say you would go wrong with some other guitar

Gary what you posted rang a bell with me. Before i retired i had an ULTRA GFI and an expo. They both played and sounded good as any of the many steels i had over the 50 plus years i played steel for a living. But The over sized logos on the GFI turned me off for some reason. IMO the Expo played just as well but i was giving it up for good,
I know it is subjective but if one wants the PP Emmons tone just crank the treble up on the amp.I played a E PP years ago while my ZB was being worked on and was so happy to get my old ZB back. To my ears it was too tinny sounding, but i wasn't playing country. Thought i would throw this in, Now you can throw it back out.lol Tracy

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