S12 universal 8+5 standard copedent

Mario Forte · Post by **Mario Forte** » 21 Jun 2012 9:59 pm

Hi i just got an S12 universal MSA Vintage XL and looking for a pretty standard copedent setup for my new purchase...can anybody help me? Thanks
mario66chef@yahoo.it

Douglas Schuch · Post by **Douglas Schuch** » 21 Jun 2012 10:44 pm

Mario,

I see this is your first post. Welcome to the Forum!

There is a bunch of information about these tunings here on the forum, just do some searches. I'd start with searching "U12" and "U-12" and that should turn up most of them. Note that when you click on "Search" (top right quadrant of the screen) you get the Forum search engine, but you can also then look to the left side and click to get a Google search. I'd try both, results might vary.

Recent discussions on the copeds associated with U-12's are:

Lane's Bb6th Universal:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=227309

And Karen Sarkisian's questions:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=227226

But there are plenty more. Lane's might be interesting, but not very applicable to your guitar, if it is a typical U-12 with E9/B6. Lane's is a variation of this, 1/2 step lower in tuning, and in Bb6 with no pedals: he uses a knee lever to raise the strings to bring it to an E9 (well, 1/2 step lower, so Eb9): same idea, backwards? haha. And a 1/2 step lower.

So, if you have a standard U-12 tuning, you are in E/9 with no pedals and levers, and lowering your E's (typically either Left Knee Right [LKR] or Right Knee one direction or the other...). You also may have a means of locking that lever in the lowered position for B6: some like this, some don't. Some guitars have it and some don't.

With this tuning, you should be able to play any E9 music you want using the standard Tab, except you do not have the 9 string: you either will raise the 10, or lower the 8 to get that note. Most U-12's work this way.

As for copeds, I think different manufacturers tended to have variations in their "recommended" U-12 copeds (Carter's was based on Jeff Newman's ideas, Sierra had theirs...don't know about old MSA's). You can see many different ones by doing this: far top right is links. On link page, in the nav bar, is a button for "copedents". Once there, they are sorted by tuning, so scroll down to the "Universal E9/B6 section". Check Maurice Anderson's first: he is Mr. MSA, so yours may match his. If not, check the others. You will see how they are the same, how they differ.

Most have pedals 1,2 and 3 the same, and the same as an E9 standard setup. Order may be reversed, though.

Beyond this, I'd say if you want further information, ask more specific questions in the thread. But, do the searches first: some will not answer if you ask a question that gets asked every 3 months! Others will politely give you the links...but do your searches, and you get your answer yourself, right away!

Also, welcome to the U-12 world of Pedal Steel. I am a newbie, but now have a U-12 I am learning on.

Good luck,

Doug
[edited to hide my stupidity as much as possible]

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 21 Jun 2012 11:59 pm

One correction, Doug.
Bb6. The "#" indicates sharp, "b" means flat.
While the Bb6 is certainly "the road less traveled," I like it. Especially with the two changes on one lever in the variant I got from John Alexander.
Since I'd imagine you're distant from steel guitar resources, I'd urge the E9/B6 tuning, as E9th instructional materials work directly with no translation or editing needed. I'd probably say that the Alexander half-stop should NOT be part of your original setup. The pedal steel is frustrating enough without making your thigh hold a lever against a spring.

Is the Vintage XL a triple raise or double?

Most important, what's already on it?
Does it work?
Rerodding a guitar is a bitch. Let's figure out what your guitar does, and only change it if it's goofy.
EDIT: Rerodding a complex guitar is a bear.

Douglas Schuch · Post by **Douglas Schuch** » 22 Jun 2012 12:31 am

Lane, thanks for the clarification. I, of course, knew that...but that does not stop me having too many brain-farts.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 22 Jun 2012 4:36 am

Some Jeff Newman charts
http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php

Here is mine

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 Jun 2012 4:42 am

I'm curious about why P8 moved to P4.
I'm less curious about why the old P4 disappeared: I never found much use for it til I heard Tom Morell use it in the early Time Warp Tophands CDs before he went back to lap steel exclusively.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 22 Jun 2012 4:55 am

Its a Jeff Newman thing..
With my foot rocking back and forth over pedals 4-5 I can get 1 and 4 minor chords with out having to use two feet and also pedal 6-7 together gives nice Aug. with one foot.
A sort of home base with my foot over 5-6... pedal 6 of course making a 4 chord and 5 making a 7th back 2 frets
Diminished with pedals 5-6 down.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 Jun 2012 5:11 am

Personally, I'm a believer in putting P5 on a lever, that way the 5&7 combo doesn't require double-footing.
I plan to arrange a cluster on my guitar to allow that.
Bruce built my D-10 Zum that way

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 22 Jun 2012 5:30 am

There is always the B pedal for a 7th in B6th with Es lowered.
I tend to keep my LKR folded up out of the way..and am there for short a lever.
Thinking I should do something else with the vert.
Maybe pull strings 1-2 to a one chord or drop string 3 to a G.. some other Moonie style.. or ..
Any ideas for the vert??

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 Jun 2012 6:05 am

If you ask me, I think you got a pretty good setup. I'd drop 6 to F#, myself. Which has some appropriate applications when I get in a Mooney mood. When I want to get my Moon on, my first step is to think Don Rich Tele. (Thinking Flacke/Lee/Mason Tele doesn't take you to Mooney, But Don and Merle help)
Were it my guitar, I'd set it to B6, with the resting note D#, and put RKL taking 4&8 to F with a half-stop at E.
Then I'd think of moving the Bb lever to LKL, P5 to RKR, reassign the now empty P5 to raise 12 to C# and 8 to E, and put your RKR on LKR (so that you can have E and D at the same time)
I'm finding it easy to hold that lever on the half stop, as long as I remember to. And it frees up a lever since you have D#, E and E#/F on the same knee

John Alexander · Post by **John Alexander** » 22 Jun 2012 8:23 am

Lane Gray wrote:Personally, I'm a believer in putting P5 on a lever, that way the 5&7 combo doesn't require double-footing.

On the Bb6 have you tried using LKL + RKR with P5 as an alternative to P5 + P7? The voicing is only slightly different - I actually prefer it a little bit. I think Maurice may have dropped traditional P7 from his Bb6 setup, and I would guess that the availability of those notes via RKR and LKL is what makes that possible.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 22 Jun 2012 8:51 am

I see the same notes, but I like that squeeze of the 6 to the maj7. I'm seeing the possibility of either (standard C6 numbers here) P4 or P7 being removed as redundant, but I don't wanna drop them both. I might drop one, though.
To quote brother Sinkler, it's not so much the note, but how you get it.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 22 Jun 2012 9:44 am

To quote brother Sinkler, it's not so much the note, but how you get it.

Hey, that Sinkler guy actually says something that makes sense, well, once in a while.

Lane, the practice of moving C6 P8 into the P4 slot is fairly common and has been around for many years. I forget who I first saw do it, but my D10's have always been set up that way since the late 70's. Back in those days, it was customary for every C6th player to play "Hold It". It's much easier to play it with P8 and P5 next to each other (of course, you beat that dilemma but putting P5 on a lever). That way, you didn't have to jump quickly from P5 to P8, or 2 foot it. I have both P7 and P8 on levers. No hopping around or 2 footing for me.

John Alexander · Post by **John Alexander** » 23 Jun 2012 12:07 pm

Lane Gray wrote:I see the same notes, but I like that squeeze of the 6 to the maj7.

Me too - but I'm too hooked on the combination of P5 with other KLs to want to move it upstairs just to avoid using the right foot for that. The RKR/LKL combo has its own squeeze and other uses that I wouldn't want to lose with P5, plus the P5 combines with LKL to get a big Gb7+ chord that doesn't seem to be available anywhere in the standard C6 changes (Remember the post a few days ago about how to get an augmented chord on a standard C6? It practically required the use of a microscope to find them.) There are also some other KL combinations with P5.

Lane Gray wrote:To quote brother Sinkler, it's not so much the note, but how you get it.

Very true. Sinkler's Theorem sums up my whole reason for playing the PSG.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 23 Jun 2012 2:40 pm

P5 means the pedal that pulls 4 strings, including low C up to D, right? Isn't that too much work for a knee lever? And thus isn't it better suited for a pedal?
A good candidate for re-locating from pedal to knee lever is the pedal that pulls the E strings. And an opposing knee lever can pull the E string the other way.
It seems to me that the most-used pull on P5 is the middle G down to F#. You could put that on a knee lever, and it would be easy to push. Better yet, pull the G down to F on that knee lever, with a half stop at F#.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 23 Jun 2012 2:53 pm

Actually, it's a fairly easy lever. At least on a Zum. Of course, it's an LKL, so with the transverse link, it might have some gear-down effect. And I only have 3 pulls: raise 9 and 10, and lower 5. I raise 1 with the boowah.

I have no problem holding that lever, for I use it with a pedal that takes 3 and 7 to C#.

And I know what you mean about the middle G drop being the most used part of P5. Notice on Reece's setup, the 7th string (F, the analog of the G) lower is the only change on LKR (whole step with half-stop)

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 24 Jun 2012 3:02 pm

Here is the loaded Carter setup.
Now that I think about it I guess I have hybridized the two.

John Alexander · Post by **John Alexander** » 24 Jun 2012 3:08 pm

Ken, shouldn't Pedal 6 be E and D, instead of F and D#?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 24 Jun 2012 3:13 pm

I think he forgot to give credit to the knee lever that lowers them.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 24 Jun 2012 3:14 pm

That is the Carter chart and it is before the Es are lowered..
Odd to lower an E and then Raise it back up to E.. BUT!
Its the wild wacky world of U-12.

So yes and no you are correct.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 24 Jun 2012 3:48 pm

Earnest Bovine wrote:.......
It seems to me that the most-used pull on P5 is the middle G down to F#. You could put that on a knee lever, and it would be easy to push. Better yet, pull the G down to F on that knee lever, with a half stop at F#.

I agree. I put it on the lever that lowers my E9th 2nd and 9th strings so I can use it with pedals 6 & 7.

As far as moving pedal 8 to the 4 position; I like using pedals 4&5 together too much to do that. The same goes for 7&8. I played "Hold It" enough times in the '80's to get comfortable with jumping between 5 and 8.

On the other hand I never got comfortable pedaling with two feet, so the G-->F# KL is a must.

John Alexander · Post by **John Alexander** » 24 Jun 2012 3:53 pm

Ken Metcalf wrote: Odd to lower an E and then Raise it back up to E.. BUT

Even odder to lower E to D# on String 8 with RKL and then lower it to D# again on Pedal 6 and expect it to drop to D as a result.

Rick Abbott · Post by **Rick Abbott** » 24 Jun 2012 4:14 pm

Mario, what help are you looking for? Have you been playing standard E9 or C6? Jeff Newman's E9/B6 is just fine for a place to start. MSA Universal must be just as good, maybe better for some things. Can't go wrong with either, depends on the style of music you play.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 24 Jun 2012 5:28 pm

John Alexander wrote:
Ken Metcalf wrote: Odd to lower an E and then Raise it back up to E.. BUT
Even odder to lower E to D# on String 8 with RKL and then lower it to D# again on Pedal 6 and expect it to drop to D as a result.

But it does and gives me a 4 chord to boot.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 24 Jun 2012 5:29 pm

Mario has a slightly off-standard copedent; he sent it to me.
It needs no changing. I'd post it but I don't know how to convert spreadsheet to jpg