My Bb6 Unified/Universal Copedent, and a Paul comment

Instruments, mechanical issues, copedents, techniques, etc.

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Lane Gray
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My Bb6 Unified/Universal Copedent, and a Paul comment

Post by Lane Gray »

John Alexander had suggested I shouldn't derail Karen's thread, so I'll give it its own.
I'm in the middle of writing it down. I'm also discovering that I'm still sorta undecided on some changes. And some strings I'll have to resort to rod sharing using tuning barrels. I'm waiting to hear from James. Come to think of it, maybe I'll see if Michael would help. I have the 4th string done, three raises and one lower, but it looks like both 5 and 6 are wanting 5 pulls each, and 7 can't spare one. I LIKE those L-shaped gizmos for shifting pulls. Not easy to install sideways, though. Requires puppetry.
The biggest problem lies in I see things I like in both the divergent tunings I've seen. I was very glad that the D strings moved together. The half-stop will work.
Here ya go, BTW.
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Last edited by Lane Gray on 17 Jun 2012 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by b0b »

Why P1? Why P5? Can your foot really find all of those pedals?

I only have 5 pedals, and on a gig last week I lost my bearings for a while. I had to look down to see which pedal my foot was over. With more, I'd lose it for sure.
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Post by Lane Gray »

Why P1? I've grown accustomed to using that change, and saw no reason to ditch it.
Why P5? Because everyone on the Bb6 says it's a neat and useful change. I hope I can make it do cool things.
I doubt I'd get lost, as I am one of those guys that will change necks between phrases, and neither the 8 on the Zum nor the 9 on the MSA ever confused me.
I may decide to throw P7 on the second LKR, putting the 3rd raise/6th lower on a 2nd LKL.
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Post by John Alexander »

I was interested to see this because I've just acquired a new guitar that has a few extra pedals, and I've been giving some thought about how to get the best use out of them in an expanded Bb6 tuning.

One thing is how to get more out of the "Boowah" pedal (your 10) - I am contemplating adding another raise to B on string 5, using a split with LKL to get the Bb when needed, plus switching its position with your pedal 5, so it is sandwiched between the "B" pedal (your 3) and traditional P4 (your 6), as it will work well in combination with either of those pedals. (I do not have a "C" pedal - your 4.) The raise to B on string 5 will create a lot more options for use of the higher notes on strings 2-5 with that pedal, and the raises on RKL will be useful in combination as well. I see all of this as bringing the Boowah pedal to life, whether or not the lower to G on the 12th string is kept.

Your p5 has been in the Bb6 tuning in one form or another for a long time. On my old MSA, it only lowers strings 5 and 8. I've found it very useful in combination with the 7th string lower on LKR, with or without the additional lower on LKV, and with or without the D to C lower on RKR. I'm contemplating splitting it into two adjacent pedals, one which lowers to A on strings 5 and 9, and one which lowers to C on strings 4 and 8, and placing these over to the right of your pedal 9 (which will be 7 on my guitar). I will have a stand alone F string in the bass so will skip the lower to F on string 10. Splitting the pedal into two will open up some chord combinations, and add some melodic possibilities similar to the A/B pedals. There is some redundancy between the p5 changes and the lowers on LKL and RKR, necessary partly because you can't move a knee in two directions at once. I would be interested to know how other Bb6 players use this pedal, as it seems to be unique to the B6 tuning.

Your 1st string lower to Db on LKV is something I added on LKR (7th string lower). As a standard kind of E9 change, it gets used a lot in combination with the B pedal (your 3), which would not seem to work with the change on LKV. I assume you have good reasons for placing it there, and am curious about what they might be.

I am contemplating relocation of some of the knee levers. The vertical lever lowering three strings is too stiff on my guitar. My new guitar will have an extra RKR, and I'm thinking of putting the 7th string lower over there, and moving the LKV to the LKR position.

I am not as worried about getting lost in 10 pedals as I am worried about being able to reach them all affectively with one foot.
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Post by Lane Gray »

John Alexander wrote:I was interested to see this because I've just acquired a new guitar that has a few extra pedals, and I've been giving some thought about how to get the best use out of them in an expanded Bb6 tuning.

Extra pedals? HAH. May I call your attention to your sig?

One thing is how to get more out of the "Boowah" pedal (your 10) - I am contemplating adding another raise to B on string 5, using a split with LKL to get the Bb when needed, plus switching its position with your pedal 5, so it is sandwiched between the "B" pedal (your 3) and traditional P4 (your 6), as it will work well in combination with either of those pedals. (I do not have a "C" pedal - your 4.) The raise to B on string 5 will create a lot more options for use of the higher notes on strings 2-5 with that pedal, and the raises on RKL will be useful in combination as well. I see all of this as bringing the Boowah pedal to life, whether or not the lower to G on the 12th string is kept.
Interesting. In the E9th world, I'd never given the C note much thought or use.
Your p5 has been in the Bb6 tuning in one form or another for a long time. On my old MSA, it only lowers strings 5 and 8. I've found it very useful in combination with the 7th string lower on LKR, with or without the additional lower on LKV, and with or without the D to C lower on RKR. I'm contemplating splitting it into two adjacent pedals, one which lowers to A on strings 5 and 9, and one which lowers to C on strings 4 and 8, and placing these over to the right of your pedal 9 (which will be 7 on my guitar). I will have a stand alone F string in the bass so will skip the lower to F on string 10. Splitting the pedal into two will open up some chord combinations, and add some melodic possibilities similar to the A/B pedals. There is some redundancy between the p5 changes and the lowers on LKL and RKR, necessary partly because you can't move a knee in two directions at once. I would be interested to know how other Bb6 players use this pedal, as it seems to be unique to the B6 tuning.
Agreed. I kept it because David Wright kept it when he was getting all of the modifications to his tuning, therefore it must be useful or interesting. Some of this change will come on later as a MSA Classic doesn't have room for everything. Stuff I know how to use is going on first. Strings 5 and 6 are slated to have more pulls than the changer can support, so I'll start playing with what I can put there, rather than wait til it reaches perfection

Your 1st string lower to Db on LKV is something I added on LKR (7th string lower). As a standard kind of E9 change, it gets used a lot in combination with the B pedal (your 3), which would not seem to work with the change on LKV. I assume you have good reasons for placing it there, and am curious about what they might be.
That's where David put his, and I borrowed heavily from him. I don't have a problem hitting the vertical either with B or by itself. And I certainly wanted that change.

I am contemplating relocation of some of the knee levers. The vertical lever lowering three strings is too stiff on my guitar. My new guitar will have an extra RKR, and I'm thinking of putting the 7th string lower over there, and moving the LKV to the LKR position.

I am not as worried about getting lost in 10 pedals as I am worried about being able to reach them all effectively with one foot.
One of the genius bits of the old MSAs. With the location of their knees, they're so far over you can hit all the pedals, 10 as easy as 1."
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Post by John Alexander »

Lane Gray wrote: Extra pedals? HAH. May I call your attention to your sig?
LOL. Exactly!
Lane Gray wrote:
Your 1st string lower to Db on LKV is something I added on LKR (7th string lower). As a standard kind of E9 change, it gets used a lot in combination with the B pedal (your 3), which would not seem to work with the change on LKV. I assume you have good reasons for placing it there, and am curious about what they might be.
That's where David put his, and I borrowed heavily from him. I don't have a problem hitting the vertical either with B or by itself. And I certainly wanted that change.
If that's where David has it, then I am certain there is good reason for it. However, I wonder if that is shown correctly on bOb's page, because of how that change is commonly used in the E9 world - typically one would want the open G or the Ab (B pedal) to be simultaneously available on the 2nd string, which would seem to conflict with the lower to Gb on string 2 if the 1st string change is on the LKV. I recently ran across an old copedent of Maurice's where he had that 1st string lower on the LKR as I have it now, and I wonder if that isn't where David Wright might actually have put it also. (I have not run into any situation where that change conflicts with the lower on the 7th string, so it works perfectly there as far as I am concerned.)
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Post by Lane Gray »

I suspect it IS shown correctly, as David sent me the same chart via email, I'd assume that he'd have told me of any obsolescence.

I'm thinking of moving the C pedal D raise to string 1, as that .015 is REALLY reluctant to go clear to F, and I have the pulls balanced perfectly on the RKL, and if that doesn't balance, I'd need ANOTHER pull to get those Es, and if I go to a slacker string, I'm not sure I could
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Post by John Alexander »

Lane Gray wrote:I suspect it IS shown correctly, as David sent me the same chart via email, I'd assume that he'd have told me of any obsolescence.
Well, it does make a nice minor 9th chord that way. On my present setup I can play the LKR and LKV simultaneously, and so get that change too except that the 7th string is lowered to Eb, making a unison with string 8.
I'm thinking of moving the C pedal D raise to string 1, as that .015 is REALLY reluctant to go clear to F, and I have the pulls balanced perfectly on the RKL, and if that doesn't balance, I'd need ANOTHER pull to get those Es, and if I go to a slacker string, I'm not sure I could
That issue was part of my reluctance to try to add the C pedal. David Wright makes it work though - does he use a lighter string?
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Post by Lane Gray »

No, he does it by using a Sierra.
The strange thing is the gauges.
He runs a .013 for the 1st string D and a .015 for the same note, string 4.
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Post by Richard Sinkler »

No, he does it by using a Sierra.
Do you mean David Wright? While he used to use a Sierra, he has been Playing MSA guitars for several years now. I'm sure I am just misunderstanding the comment.

So, Lane, you are already playing out on this on Saturday. Way to go. I would be scared to death to try it so soon. Wish I could be there.

Also, would like to see pics of the bottom of your guitar now that it is together. Has to be a site to see.
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Post by Lane Gray »

I'd just assumed, since the copedent said Sierra...
Assuming I can fit both guitars, a wide-cabinet Evans and my seat in a 240Z, I'll play it tomorrow.
I have about 90 minutes of playing it, and I think I feel comfortable with it. If I can't get them in the Z, I might chicken out and take only the Zum.
I will also practice A LOT tomorrow.
It's not fully complete. P9 awaits barrels and LKR2 awaits lever and bracket from Bruce.
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Post by Lane Gray »

Update:
Real life intervened, so I wasn't able to spend more than an hour practicing yesterday before the show. This meant only about two hours and change playing an alien tuning. So I took both guitars¹ to the gig, thinking that if I crashed and burned on the MSA, I'd just switch to the Zum. I started in the MSA as planned, didn't any obvious clams, but spent more time than I'd like THINKING "ok, we're in D, on the IV chord, where do I find G, ummm: open with P10, fret two with P9, fret 4 with Ds at Eb, fret 7 with Ds at E and the A pedal, fret 9 open and 11 with A,B,and Ds at Eb." I'm unaccustomed to having to THINK about the neck and where I am on it.²
Obviously I shoulda spent more time PLAYING, rather than on exercises getting used to the new configuration of strings 1-4. Only rarely did I hit the F string when meaning to hit either G or D/Eb, but I spent a lot of time working too hard.
For the 2nd and 3rd set, I punted and went back to the Zum. I figured that if I'm working that hard and not quite feeling comfortable, they're not quite getting their money's worth.
The band remarked that they didn't hear anything objectionable on the MSA, but I was OBVIOUSLY more comfortable piloting the Zum.
I'm gonna practice on the MSA this afternoon, and it'll be the only guitar going to the blues jam tonight: I figure if I'm playing for fun, not money, that's the environment for struggle
I'm diggin' the tuning, especially the more logical arrangement of the upper strings.
John Alexander: I really dig the both changes on one lever: it worked well, but I'm gonna have to beef up the spring tension a bit, I overshot it a few times.
B0b: I didn't have a problem getting lost with all those pedals.
I learned it: IS wise to have spare tuning nuts on hand: the 7th string lower stripped out and went flying, and; Dang, P10 is WAY the hell over there. I'll have to get used to the volume pedal being up against the leg, as I found I couldn't get my foot on it with the volume pedal in my usual place.






¹holy crap! You can fit two pedal steels, a wide-cabinet Evans and a pack-a-seat in a 240Z. Pretty sure that with a 220# driver, I'm over the #425 carrying capacity on the data plate and that replacing the JBL with a neo won't help

²I usually don't have to think at all when I play: the ideas hit my brain and come out my fingers. I cannot explain further.
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Post by b0b »

You're going to have to put air shocks on that 240Z, Lane. It wasn't built for that much weight. :whoa:
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Post by Lane Gray »

I think I'll just:
1) Only carry one guitar
2) Lose some weight. After a lifetime of low blood pressure, a month ago mine took a turn for the high (I hadn't checked in over a year, then it was 120/72, now 160/99), and it's gonna have to drop unless I want a new career (DOT physical due in August)
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Two steels...

Post by Jim Hollingsworth »

Hi Lane,
I am still trying to transition over to my C6 Uni as well. I continue to drag my D-10 to gigs til I feel a bit more confident on the Uni..... but I sure LOVE playing it! I find that I have to work harder to get those convenient "flashy" E9 style licks and with one of bands I play with I NEED those fast crazy E9 things... the guitar player is a wild man & we toss it back & forth a lot. But I am hoping to start taking Uni out soon.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Jim
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Post by Lane Gray »

C6 Uni?
Do you raise the Es for an F9?
The blues jam tonight should be fun, and the band tunes a half-step down, so I'll have open Eb for them.
I don't mind the stiffer pedals, but there is a HUGE difference between MSA and Zum
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Post by John Alexander »

Lane, sounds like you and your Bb6 are off to a good start, so congratulations!
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Post by Christopher Woitach »

My MSA plays like butter, smooth and light... But it is a 2011
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Post by John Alexander »

Lane Gray wrote: John Alexander: I really dig the both changes on one lever: it worked well, but I'm gonna have to beef up the spring tension a bit, I overshot it a few times.
Excellent. I'm wondering how that is going to go on my Excel, which is in the process of being set up by Jim Palenscar. The spring tension I have for that half stop on my MSA seems pretty optimal, but I also know that my sensitivity to it has improved with practice, and I suspect I could learn to accurately use a lighter setting.

Have you noticed that the lever can be used melodically in a manner similar to the A pedal?
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Post by Lane Gray »

Oddly, that use hadn't occurred to me, but I've never quite been a fan of the A+F position, so I underuse it.
I need to spend more time playing and less time tinkerin'.
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Post by Lane Gray »

I'd started to tack this on that Question For Paul thread, but it seemed like a hijack.
Franklin wrote:
A very important point to remember while learning anything.......Its not really completely learned until the absence of thought while playing occurs.

Paul
^THIS^

I chose the Bb6 tuning because I liked its approach of being 6th til you raise the thirds.

When I play either neck of my Zum, I don't give any thought to how to play, it's as if I just think WHAT to play, and my hands and the guitar just produce them.
The Uni slows me down: since it's neither E nor C, I have to THINK where to put my left hand. This is complicated by the very element that drew me to a Uni after 30 years of D-10: the fact that all pockets of both necks are there on one, my choice is only restrained by the fact that I HATE playing the musical equivalent of a non sequitur¹
Since the [equivalent of] the F# string is below the [equivalent of] the G#, but the [equivalent of] the D# is still out front, and the [equivalent of] the D is missing (P8 gives it back), I have to THINK where to put my right hand.

I won't be like me on this guitar until I can just will the music out of it. Must... Get ...Home... To... Practice


¹Sonny Turrentine has written some books discussing music as language. I like the metaphor. A solo should hang together like a soliloquy. Don't change the subject in the middle.
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Post by Richard Sinkler »

Looking good Lane. I have a question fer ya.

Why Bb6 instead of C6? Is it a tonality issue (lower tone)? Seems your copedent would work as a C based tuning. That way there is less of a learning curve, or rather, having to think of where the positions are now.
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Post by Lane Gray »

3 reasons, 1 of which makes sense.
That being that the slacker strings do sound kind of nice down low.
The other being that that is where the tuning charts were. I borrowed it from David Wright and Reece.

Not only could it work as a C/F tuning, it could also work as an B/E tuning, Although that might have consequences on timing that coordinated pull on 4 and 8.
I don't think that would have much effect on the alien feeling. Had I put it at B/E, some adaptations for the C6 would have been required. Had I put it at C/F, some mental adaptation for the E9th would step in.
I had briefly considered either of those, but then thought It would make more sense to go for the altogether alien.
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Post by Tony Williamson »

I wish you guys could get into the technical aspect of copedants...it seems you get close but never quite get there.
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Post by Lane Gray »

What do you mean? I can see adding one more knee (OK, maybe 2), but that's it.
and what do you mean by technical aspects?
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