The Emmons sound

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 24 Mar 2012 2:36 pm

Yet another p/p love fest and shameless brainwashing.
These pop up about every week here on the Forum because if they ever miss a week the myth will die.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 24 Mar 2012 9:36 pm

I agree with Reece. I'm one of those people that play what I like the sound of. I don't care what brand of guitar it is, as long as I like the sound. I've owned five push pulls all the way from a 66 to an 80's model, three of which were black, and even though they all sounded good, just didn't care for what I was hearing or I would still own at least one of them. I think the best I ever heard Buddy sound was when he was playing an EMCI. Yes, Junior Knights P/P sounded wonderful at Dallas but Junior also sounded wonderful on a Rains. I think all the modern guitars sound great, different but great. The push pulls sound great but also different but not to the point that they out class other modern guitars. I guess it all boils down to different strokes for different folks.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 25 Mar 2012 9:30 am

Bo Legg wrote:Yet another p/p love fest and shameless brainwashing.
These pop up about every week here on the Forum because if they ever miss a week the myth will die.

...not brainwashing, not a myth, Bo Legged.

"Black sounds best" is a tease. Much of the alure of the "PP sound" stems from the fact that Emmons was first to modernize the pedal steel guitar, with a few carry-overs from Bigsby and Sho-Bud.
Other manufactures have "dittoed" some of these innovations.

To me the PP tone does have a distinct character in the mid-range __ some like it, some do not.
And to me, the all-pull is mechanically superior to the PP.

Norman Evans · Post by **Norman Evans** » 25 Mar 2012 12:28 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usj22Luf9Ek

Emmons PP and Evans amps. I'm not associated with Evans amps, I just like the sound of a PP through one.
Norm

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 26 Mar 2012 2:35 pm

Those who believe a particular brand of steel guitar has a “specific and identifiable sound characteristic”, are suggesting that specific brand has a detectible consistent inherent sound/tone, thereby presenting the premise that everyone, anytime, and anywhere, no matter who is playing the instrument, or listening, can identify a consistent inherent “sound signature” heard in all guitars of that same brand.

Scientific physiological explanations and extensive experimentation over decades, has shown that when pre-conceived perception is obscured by the absence of vision, the widely and falsely perceived myth that a specific brand of steel guitar has a consistent inherent sound/tone……………is proven false!

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 26 Mar 2012 2:45 pm

It's called the Mcgurk effect. Google it. I'm not kidding.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 26 Mar 2012 5:42 pm

I played an Emmons P/P starting in 1980 for 10 yrs. the first time. I now have another S-8. In between, I've owned or played most of the other major brands prevalent through the 90's, 00's. A few Mullen, Sho-Bud, Williams, Derby et al. That doesn't mean I'm an expert on steel guitar tone. Far from it. I just know they are all different. They all have specific characteristics that set them apart tonally.

I've had band members that I've played with for 10 yrs. or so make comments about the differences in the sound of various instruments I play with them. So, I'm not the only one that hears it.

The Emmons P/P has a sound and response when you're sitting behind it not present in any other brand of guitar. A certain je ne sais quoi if you will, that's difficult to describe in words.

To say that there's no difference in tone and timbre between Emmons P/P guitars and others is to say that all steel guitars sound the same and that is simply not true.

Just because you cannot identify a particular instrument in a blindfold listening test doesn't mean they all sound the same.

This debate will rage on until the end of time but nothing anyone can say will ever convince me otherwise.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 26 Mar 2012 9:11 pm

Like steel guitars by the same manufacturer, with consecutive serial numbers, may sound differently.
But, they can still carry some of the same tonal characteristics.

Violinists all over the world covet the unparalleled sound of the Stradivarius. These violins are some of the rarest instruments in the world and were crafted by violin maker Antonio Stradivari. Some 650 still exist.

Although, an acoustical instrument (I believe) will lend itself to a more pronounced tonal distinction than an electrified instrument, like electric instruments can still carry distinctive tonal characteristics.

But, a player will play what suits his taste.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 27 Mar 2012 6:26 am

It’s interesting to note, no one has yet commented on the McGurk effect which makes a clear distinction between hearing and what we “think” we hear when we “see” what we’re hearing, which is the essence of this thread.

I respectfully suggest those who seek the truth of the tone myth to take just a few minutes and Google “Stradivarious violin and other violin comparisons”. Then click on “play off, old and new”, and, “violinist can’t tell the difference”. This also concludes that what we “hear”, can be skewed by a pre-conceived perception.

I’m not suggesting all mainstream steel guitars sound the same when simply plugged into an amplifier with identical settings, but I am suggesting, that only slight variances in the amplifier will make any differences disappear when those making the comparisons can’t SEE which guitar is being played. (I don’t know of anyone who ever played an electrical instrument who didn’t make amp adjustments)

I’m further suggesting that were someone to be blindfolded and play different steel guitars of the same height while using only the bar and no pedals or knee levers which could reveal different “feels”, that no one could consistently identify “any” brand of steel guitar were the slight amp variances to be applied.

Myths die hard for many reasons, not the least of which is attributed to “buying into” a pre-conceived perception. However for those who wish to pursue this further in a sincere controlled and non-biased comparison, the truth will be revealed.

It’s only human nature that those who prefer to continue the myth for reasons only they know, will likely not make the comparison tests or believe in scientifically proven methods, and will attempt to debunk all scientific proof which has been conducted by very intelligent and credible people using scientific evaluations.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 27 Mar 2012 6:30 am

It’s interesting to note, no one has yet commented on the McGurk effect which makes a clear distinction between hearing and what we “think” we hear when we “see” what we’re hearing, which is the essence of this thread.

I respectfully suggest those who seek the truth of the tone myth to take just a few minutes and Google “Stradivarious violin and other violin comparisons”. Then click on “play off, old and new”, and, “violinist can’t tell the difference”. This also concludes that what we “hear”, can be skewed by a pre-conceived perception.

I’m not suggesting all mainstream steel guitars sound the same when simply plugged into an amplifier with identical settings, but I am suggesting, that only slight variances in the amplifier will make any differences disappear when those making the comparisons can’t SEE which guitar is being played. (I don’t know of anyone who ever played an electrical instrument who didn’t make amp adjustments)

I’m further suggesting that were someone to be blindfolded and play different steel guitars of the same height while using only the bar and no pedals or knee levers which could reveal different “feels”, that no one could consistently identify “any” brand of steel guitar were the slight amp variances to be applied.

Myths die hard for many reasons, not the least of which is attributed to “buying into” a pre-conceived perception. However for those who wish to pursue this further in a sincere controlled and non-biased comparison, the truth will be revealed.

It’s only human nature that those who prefer to continue the myth for reasons only they know, will likely not make the comparison tests or believe in scientifically proven methods, and will attempt to debunk all scientific proof which has been conducted by very intelligent and credible people using scientific evaluations.

Roual Ranes · Post by **Roual Ranes** » 27 Mar 2012 7:24 am

I have told this before but to me it tell the truth. I borrowed Reece's personal guitar one time and I set my amp just like his but in no way did the set up sound the same as his. Guitar or operator??????? If it is the rig then it should have sounded the same.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 27 Mar 2012 9:11 am

It's a treat to watch this go 'round and 'round again.
To me the steel guitar itself is a tool, and frankly, I'd prefer to play any one of the recent all-pull guitars based on mechanical stability, ease of maintenance, and splits. I played an Emmons PP for many years and have been through many fine guitars since. Like most people, I adjust my playing and gear to sound like me, much as I'd like to sound like somebody else sometimes!
All of the guitars I've owned have a distinct personality, and inherent tone. Some similar, some wildly divergent, some die above the 12th fret, some sing up there, etc. etc.
I'm a recent "returnee" to the PP flock and I have to say that while indeed each player would make my current guitar sound different, it does have a "tone", "timber" "response"- that just makes me want to play it. There is definitely something different in the midrange and in the separation of notes across the neck from many other guitars. There's also a remarkable stability in the tuning compared to many other designs. But more than anything, it's the response, which I've heard referred to as "backfeed"... after striking a note or particularly a chord, there is a real bloom to the sound that responds incredibly well to bar pressure and vibrato, giving a very palpable level of playing expression I just haven't found with many other brands.
I'm not and never have been a trend follower as far as brand loyalty, and I honestly wish I'd found this level of playing joy from a modern, mechanically simpler guitar... but for me it's just a joy to play this 41 year-old sweetheart.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 27 Mar 2012 7:11 pm

Reece, I'm not purposely trying to ignore your recent reply in this thread (since I posted the thought about the mystique of the Strativarious).
My time at the computer is limited. Although I post frequently, you will notice they are short and concise.

I'm in agreement with you (as I've stated before) that human senses "intertwine". Specificly, what we see can affect what we hear. And, the converse is true. I have had the experience of hearing someone speak on the radio for a few years and formulate an image in my mind of what that person looks like. I'm almost always surprised when I finally see that person.

Respectfully, I'm in disagreement with you, if I interpret your position correctly, that an instrument (in a given class) cannot possess a distinct tonal quality.

Later I will attempt to outline a theoretical test __ one I think would be fair to both sides of the debate. Given the time I will post it in this thread.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 28 Mar 2012 10:13 am

I'd be interested in a double-blind sound test. I don't have the resources to put it together, but I'm sure if someone posted samples of several steels and used the poll feature on the forum, we could get some interesting results that would put this to rest. One thing that I've neglected to stress is objectivity Vs. subjectivity. In otherwords what are YOU hearing, not the guy(s)/gal(s) next to you.
I'd love nothing but to be proven wrong, so I could learn to be happy with whatever I happen to be playing and not wondering if the grass is greener on the other side.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 28 Mar 2012 12:09 pm

Fred and Reece, would these stipulations be reasonable for the Organization of a Theoretical Sound Test?

Preface:

To me, clarity is more important than agreement or disagreement.
Most, I believe, would agree that human senses interact, one having an affect on the other(s), possibly altering perception.

Hearing aids and blindfolds are unnatural. Both would be disruptive while testing the sound quality of an instrument.

So, a test must be devised without blindfolds; and since hearing acuity is involved, no hearing aids __ plus, judges must be tested within one week of a Sound Test to ascertain their hearing is in normal range.

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 28 Mar 2012 1:07 pm

I understand how the different senses interact with each other to produce a subjective opinion. However, when we listen to a recording over the radio, CD etc. We are all pretty much in the same boat because no one sees the musicians or instruments. Of course you can adjust tone and volume from one device to the next, and each device has it's own quality. Also if a deaf person is looking at a painting, does that change the way he/she is taking in the experience? How about a blind musician? I don't think your vision plays a roll in every situation.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 28 Mar 2012 1:15 pm

Fred if you will note, I said, "possibly altering perception".

No sound test of an instrument should ever be conducted from a recording.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 28 Mar 2012 3:19 pm

As has been mentioned, you should play the steel guitar you like, that feels good and sounds good to you, regardless of color, brand, smell and if Buddy or Curly plays one. But, steel guitars being rather expensive and inconvenient to just sit around and casually play, it's not always possible to run through a bunch of them every few months to find the one for you. I've owned a bunch of Fenders, Gretsch's and Gibsons and I've got a pretty good idea which ones I liked, but I've owned far fewer steel guitars. Luckily, a P/P was my 2nd steel guitar, and I liked it, and I'm still playing it.

I was on my way to the Midnight Jamboree one night to see Weldon with Charlie Walker. I had just finished a gig and I was late, and I was listening on the radio. It sounded like Weldon, but the tone was different, and I wondered what he was playing. Not a P/P? Turned out to be a Legrande. And that's through a tiny car radio speaker.

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 28 Mar 2012 5:30 pm

Well, I don't mean to show off but check the sound of this Emmons using a behringer keyboard amp.
WWW.YOUTUBE.COM/SERAFINPOL

Carlos Polidura · Post by **Carlos Polidura** » 28 Mar 2012 5:34 pm

OOOPS.... just find the video of the red Emmons where I'm playing "PRECIOUS MEMORIES"
Well check out my entire channel if you wish. thanks.

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 28 Mar 2012 5:48 pm

If they are the "cats meow" then why did they quit making them.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 28 Mar 2012 7:09 pm

Rick.....to clarify my position.

"I do not believe it to be possible to consistently identify a distinct specific tonal quality of any brand of steel guitar when compared with different brands of other mainstream guitars in a fair comparison/evaluation".

Admittedly I've been wrong many times, and if I'm proven wrong in this instance, I'll be the first to admit it. I honestly don't have a dog in this hunt.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 28 Mar 2012 7:11 pm

Rick.....to clarify my position.

"I do not believe it to be possible to consistently identify a distinct specific tonal quality of any brand of steel guitar when compared with different brands of other mainstream guitars in a fair comparison/evaluation".

Admittedly I've been wrong many times, and if I'm proven wrong in this instance, I'll be the first to admit it. I honestly don't have a dog in this hunt.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 28 Mar 2012 8:18 pm

Mark van Allen wrote:It's a treat to watch this go 'round and 'round again.
To me the steel guitar itself is a tool, and frankly, I'd prefer to play any one of the recent all-pull guitars based on mechanical stability, ease of maintenance, and splits. I played an Emmons PP for many years and have been through many fine guitars since. Like most people, I adjust my playing and gear to sound like me, much as I'd like to sound like somebody else sometimes!
All of the guitars I've owned have a distinct personality, and inherent tone. Some similar, some wildly divergent, some die above the 12th fret, some sing up there, etc. etc.
I'm a recent "returnee" to the PP flock and I have to say that while indeed each player would make my current guitar sound different, it does have a "tone", "timber" "response"- that just makes me want to play it. There is definitely something different in the midrange and in the separation of notes across the neck from many other guitars. There's also a remarkable stability in the tuning compared to many other designs. But more than anything, it's the response, which I've heard referred to as "backfeed"... after striking a note or particularly a chord, there is a real bloom to the sound that responds incredibly well to bar pressure and vibrato, giving a very palpable level of playing expression I just haven't found with many other brands.
I'm not and never have been a trend follower as far as brand loyalty, and I honestly wish I'd found this level of playing joy from a modern, mechanically simpler guitar... but for me it's just a joy to play this 41 year-old sweetheart.

Mark,

Like Steven Tyler would say:

"That was beautiful, Man"!

I've had the same experience and my Franklin sits in the practice room now!

bob

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 28 Mar 2012 9:16 pm

Rick, In science, experiments are conducted under controlled circumstances. The experiment we're talking about would be a comparison study. Just like the scientist who researches the outcomes of a drugs, the comparison study must be done under the exact same circumstance for all steels in the study. The steel must be played by the same player, same song or passage, using the same bar and picks in the same studio, with the same amp or direct input to recorder, the exact same board with the exact settings on the exact same tape or media and played back through the exact same sound system and speakers. There may even be other extraneous factors that need to be controlled that I haven't mentioned. The listeners would not know any of the details they would only listen and mark thier answer.
The results would be as reliable as they can get. The playback part would be very difficult to control. We, the listeners would have to download the clip and play it back through the exact same media as described above. This whole exersise does sound geeky and far fetched. Let's just play the steel we like and be happy!