who's gonna make the 1st "relic'd" PSG

Al Carey · Post by **Al Carey** » 15 Mar 2012 5:13 am

Those familiar with the 6-string world know that the road-worn, beat-up look is the cool thing right now. Reading thru a recent mica vs lacqer thread, i got to wondering, why are steelers(in general) so averse to a worn looking guitar?

Personally, I like the look of a well-played Tele, but knowing it was done at the factory is just... sad.

Here's the real deal:

(not my guitar. Belongs to some guy named "Springsteen")

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 15 Mar 2012 5:15 am

I believe the late Eric West holds that honor.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... highlight=

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Mar 2012 7:18 am

Why do players enjoy the look of a road-worn guitar?

Guitars that have some miles on them, guitars that show they've been through some experiences, have stories to tell that come out when they're played. When a player acquires an instrument with a past, their ownership of the instrument becomes part of that guitar's timeline, and the player becomes connected to it, if only in his mind's eye. This is the attraction of owning and using a vintage horn.

I remember the time I was working in an Austin guitar store and a 1958 Strat came in the door that had been under the original owner's bed since 1960. Except for a minute amount of finish wear on the second and third frets, the guitar was a solid 9.75 dead mint, case and everything.

After all the "wows" and "oh gollys" passed, here's what: that guitar had no soul, no story to tell. It was just like taking a 1957 Strat Reissue MIJ guitar off the wall and playing that. In fact, that would be preferable because of devaluation, et al.

Of course, we brokered the guitar on behalf of the original owner to a collector, not a player. A regular player couldn't have afforded it, anyway.

So relic'ed guitars are basically... phonies. Real-life experiences can't be added at a factory. Not to say that a relic'ed guitar can't sound great and be a great player with feel, vibe, and more. But its story won't be there to tell, regardless of what the owner may fantasize about in his mind.

Now that I've opined about instruments, allow me a moment about players. Older players may want a vintage horn because that's what they wanted 40 or 50 years ago when they were teenagers, like me. When I was in high school (1962-65), a steel guitar looked like a Fender, a Bigsby, a Sho~Bud, or an Emmons. That's what I visualized myself behind in my youthful fantasies. Consequently, those are the instruments that I own and play to this day. Though I've had my flirtations with modern steels, those brands are the ones I've kept; I do have a couple PP's from the 1980's, but they are unchanged primarily from those made in the late 60's.

I believe that many younger steel players who seek the Emmons wraparounds and bolt-ons, the Sho~Bud Fingertips and Permanents, and the modern day Clinesmith (Bigsby replica) do so for two reasons. First, those instruments do have a sound and a performance that a modern steel does not deliver, simply by virtue of their construction and design. Secondly, the older instrument makes a statement that the player reveres and pays homage to the music and the players of the past, and wants to become part of the storyline of that particular guitar.

Todd Clinesmith, as did Paul Warnik and Dave Peterson before him, are doing us all a service with his new guitar. Likewise would James Morehead be doing so if he proceeds with his reissues of the Sho~Bud Fingertip. But these are new looking guitars, not intentionally beat-up... phonies.

Try to make it real, compared to what? Compared to real is the only answer for me. Your mileage may vary.

Excuse the rant, and thanks for you time.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 15 Mar 2012 8:12 am

Hey Al - You took that photo in the R&R hall of fame, Yes?
Here's an article concerning it, among other things.
I especially like the last paragraph in the article.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... entor.aspx

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 15 Mar 2012 8:44 am

I could care less about relicing. I want my guitars brand new looking. I refinish any old guitars that I get. Refinishing adds value.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 15 Mar 2012 9:09 am

I certainly agree with you, Herb.
There's a big difference between "reliced" six string and steel guitars, however- playability.
I used to think the idea of beating up a perfectly good new guitar was B.S., posturing, stupidity, and as you say- phony.
Until I got my hands on a Nash Tele relic. Not so much the beat-in looks, as the played in feel. It really played like an old, much loved axe your favorite uncle dragged through roadhouses for decades and then gifted you with.
My greatest surprise was finding the factory-reliced Fender Roadworn Teles had much of the same mojo. I could care less for the beat up exterior, but the attention to rolling the fingerboard edges, removing finish from the neck in the way played-in guitars are, etc. makes these some really nice playing axes.
The Roadworn Tele I have is my favorite of maybe 28 0r 30 Teles I've owned. I bought a Nash Strat just for the studio- everyone who plays it is amazed. I've changed my attitude about the relic jobs, simply because so many that I've played really felt great. Plus, you no longer worry about dropping 'em!

In the pedal guitar world, thirty or forty years of bandstand playing usually leaves a mostly or completely worn-out undercarriage, pedal slop, noise, missing parts, a half inch thick layer of tobacco gunk... who would want any of that on a new axe? The interesting thing is that folks who have an older steel rebuilt usually have it cosmetically refinished as well. So I guess the steel community isn't buying into the phoney vintage thing. As Kevin says, nicely refinished steels bring a premium. I just bought a '71 PP from Lynn Stafford, specifically because he'd rebuilt it. Refinishing vintage 6 strings is the dumbest no-no in the industry.

I'm guessing somebody who took the time to carefully relic a "new" Bigsby might really make some big bucks, if it hasn't already been done.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Mar 2012 9:22 am

MVA
Agreed that contouring the neck in the way that a worn guitar would exhibit could enhance the playability. But the phony forearm and pick wear? Gimme a break!

And yes, my wraparounds I now own and the other vintage Emmonses I've had and gladly sent to the care of other deserving players have all been restored as well as refurbished, thanks to the meticulous care and knowledge of Mike Cass and Bobby Bowman, my two gurus of the Zen of Steel Guitar Maintenance.
One exception: I bought the blue lacquer 1980s PP from Craig Holden that was advertised here (though I first saw it on Craigslist), even though there were obvious and very visible finish dings and flaws. I'm not having it refinished. Why? Because those battle scars have mojo, and said to me, "this axe sounds good." And y'know, it does.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 15 Mar 2012 9:36 am

I've always thought relicing was a bit silly, until I was checking out some guitars my friend made. They are tele-style instruments, and I bought the first one he made; it's all 75-100 year-old wood, and the bod is yellow cedar. The finish wasn't perfect, so he distressed it a lot. I played it only to consider custom ordering a new one, but it felt SO GOOD that I bought it the next day. I wouldn't have ordered it that way, but I don't care. It's the best guitar I've ever owned.

As for PSG, I can't see it flying. Consider how many 'polishing my end plate' threads pop up on the forum. I'm happy with this, as I could care less about my steel looking new, and that allowed me to buy an amazing early 70's Sho~Bud at just over a grand, in part because no one else took it seriously due to checks in the lacquer and a million bar dings.

Al Carey · Post by **Al Carey** » 15 Mar 2012 10:08 am

Bud Angelotti wrote:Hey Al - You took that photo in the R&R hall of fame, Yes?
Here's an article concerning it, among other things.
I especially like the last paragraph in the article.

No, I cut & pasted it from a website

Thanks for the link, tho

Al Carey · Post by **Al Carey** » 15 Mar 2012 10:14 am

Marc Jenkins wrote:As for PSG, I can't see it flying.

I guess what it boils down to is there's no wear on a PSG that improves playability, at least in the manner of a six string?

And most agree that the cosmetic side of relicing is just silly.

So how steelers play shirtless, like rock and roll gunslingers?
Wait - don't answer that!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 15 Mar 2012 10:31 am

Herb Steiner wrote:a 1958 Strat came in the door that had been under the original owner's bed since 1960....
... that guitar had no soul

Maybe that's why he left it under the bed.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Mar 2012 10:56 am

Earnest Bovine wrote:
Herb Steiner wrote:a 1958 Strat came in the door that had been under the original owner's bed since 1960....
... that guitar had no soul
Maybe that's why he left it under the bed.

No, actually he got into school sports!

In about 1986, this late 30's suit/tie guy walks into Danny's guitars and says he has a guitar that he thinks might be worth something. A guy in a suit/tie was like a marshmallow in a raisin box at Danny's. Seems back in 1960 he wanted to play guitar, so his grandfather bought him a used one. He said he took about 6 weeks worth of lessons and then got more into into sports at school. So the guitar went under the bed in 1960.

In a recent visit home his mom asked him what
he wanted to do with the guitar that he'd forgotten about as he went on to school, became an attorney, had a family, et al. So he takes it to Danny's Guitars, pulls out the dead mint '58 Strat, first year of three-tone finish, gorgeous tweed/red velvet case, original strings! and says "is it valuable?"

Supressing our baser instincts

, we told him that yes, it was worth some serious coin. We ultimately brokered the guitar to Clifford Antone, a blues club owner, promoter, and patron for decades in Austin. I think Cliff eventually donated the guitar to one of the little recognized blues veterans who were given new leases on life, career and a home in Austin thanks to Clifford Antone.

And that's... the REST of the story.

Bet you never thought you'd get this long a response, eh Doug?

BTW, for what the vintage market value was on that guitar in 1986, you couldn't buy a decent new D-10 steel today.

Spencer Luckey · Post by **Spencer Luckey** » 15 Mar 2012 11:02 am

when are we going to get relic'd cars?

rodger_mcbride · Post by **rodger_mcbride** » 15 Mar 2012 11:58 am

when Cuba opens up.....

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 15 Mar 2012 12:20 pm

Ain't nothing 'cool' about factory relicing. Stupidest thing to become popular so far in the 21st century.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 15 Mar 2012 1:12 pm

Herb Steiner wrote: This is the attraction of owning and using a vintage horn.

Older players may want a vintage horn because that's what they wanted 40 or 50 years ago when they were teenagers, like me. become part of the storyline of that particular guitar.

Are you discussing guitars or trumpets?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Mar 2012 1:20 pm

No Leslie, back in the day, many musicians referred to any musical instrument as a "horn." I come from that era. Be not confused, just go practice your axe.

BTW, I was noticing your equipment. Half stack? Good grind? Are you talking about amps, or pancakes and fresh coffee?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 15 Mar 2012 1:23 pm

honk honk!

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 15 Mar 2012 2:13 pm

Maybe because steels have improved so much from the "good ol' days." New pedal steel guitars look better than any Telecaster I ever saw. I'd like to emulate the sound of the great players from the '60s and '70, the appearance of the guitar is less important. There aren't too many ugly pedal steels I'm aware of. The old Fender consoles have much the same vibe as the old Telecasters so I'd expect to see those "distressed" but I want my pedal steel to look respectable. How square is that?

But seriously, how often can you drop a pedal steel or whack some drunk with one? You can't use one to prop up the trunk on your old Chevy Nova like you can with a Tele. Smoke and dust are bad juju for a steel guitar, something I just found out the hard way. My 20-year-old Zumsteel guitar has some scuffs and scratches on the pedal board but it's clean and shiny still. However the changer mechanism is worn and needs a rebuild and if I'm proud of that fact I'm not happy about the prospect of disassembling the thing and sending the changer to the builder.

If you want to see a "relic'd" pedal steel, do a Google search for Robert Randolph and check his Fessenden. It's tore up pretty bad--or good depending. I think that wear and tear come about honestly.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 15 Mar 2012 2:15 pm

Common parlance back in the Old Country was slightly different.

I recall that my hero and mentor, guitarist Pete Dyke, was beside himself with excitement one day (he was then working in lew Davis Music Shop in Charing Cross Road) and, when I enquired as to the reason for his joy, he announced:

"My new bugle will be here next Monday!!!"

The 'bugle' in question was a new Gibson L-5 he had on order. That always tickled me and I like 'horn' too!

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 15 Mar 2012 2:43 pm

I agree about fake "relicing". There is something intriguing about old guitars that bear honest battle scars, but I would rather have a nice looking refinish to repair an ugly old axe of my own.

Guitars like Rory Gallagher's old beat up Strat and Andy Summers' Tele just look sad to me. Why anyone would pay big money for a new replica of those is beyond me.

I don't see this phenomenon ever taking hold of the steel guitar community, but I'm sure there is a contingent that appreciates old beat up lap and console steels.

I'm thinking about that gorgeous old near mint Stringmaster triple that Wes has posted. Would it be worth more or less with some "history", "character" "mojo" etc?

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 15 Mar 2012 3:46 pm

I'm in agreement that faking wear is faddish and more a ripoff than anything. You can take a guitar and sand it down to get the effect and you can find old parts, especially bridges and tuners if you want to go further. Or you can pay triple the price of a decent Telecaster or Strat and let Fender do it for you. Just look in the Musician's Friend catalog or their website and brace yourself for the price of these beat-up looking guitars.

As with certain makes of pedal steels, I suggest the blindfold test to check whether this is worth the fuss. Amazing what people will do to simulate authenticity. Why not just practice and get that authentic sound rather than rely on the image? I've seen uncool guitars suddenly become very cool being played by someone with talent.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » 15 Mar 2012 4:26 pm

And yet the sunburst finish used on stringed instruments for many years was really an attempt to simulate normal wear patterns. Look at an old arch top guitar or an F-style mandolin, and it's the high spots and the playing surface on the back of the neck that are always a much lighter shade.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 15 Mar 2012 9:33 pm

I think that relicing pedal steels would be a marketing disaster, given the proclivity (?fetish?) of most pedal steel players to want a new & shiny looking pedal steel, regardless of how old it actually is. So I doubt we'll ever see intentionally-reliced pedal steels, but you never know.

I also would never specifically relic a guitar for appearance's sake, either steel or Spanish. But I'll say that, as stupid as the whole process may seem, I completely agree with Mark and Marc to withhold judgment on any guitar until it's played. I try very hard to evaluate guitars on the basis of the way they sound and play, not on the way they look. I guess there are limits to my aesthetic tolerance, and I generally prefer the look of a sharp-looking guitar that hasn't been drug through the wars. But I am more than happy to have a steel guitar with some bar dings and finish checking, and agree with Marc J. that I'm delighted that I can find them a lot cheaper because of this fetish for brand-new looking pedal steels. For me, like new mechanics are obviously strongly preferred, but some moderate cosmetic wear is no problem.

On 6-strings - the two best Telecasters I've ever played were definitely reliced. One was an '82 Fullerton-made '52 RI Tele that was as close to the sound of Roy Buchanan's Tele that I have ever heard (and I've been kicking my ass for trading it for the last 10 years.) That relicing was real - years and years of cigarette smoke, cigarette burns, fading, checking, and honest wear. But the other is my current 12-13 year old Fender Relic LPB '63 Custom Shop Tele. That thing is insane. No, given my druthers, I wouldn't have done the body finish relicing (I do agree with Mark and Mark on the advantages of a rolled fingerboard, it's one of the big things that separates the good vintage guitars from most reissues). But I didn't have my druthers, someone else did that before me, and that guitar plays like a dream and sings in Roy Nichols style tone like no other I've ever had my hands on. And I have some nice old ones.

OK - I've naturally reliced that relic LPB Tele a bit since I got it, but most of the relicing is fake, and it doesn't bother me at all. Anyway - if a guitar in the forest got reliced and nobody saw it happening, then did it actually happen? Or more importantly, would anybody care and why?

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 15 Mar 2012 10:21 pm

After one of my Kansas City pals got one of Paul Warniks NOS Bigsby pedal
steels in the mid-'90's, I was at Curly Chalkers one day telling him of my pals
exciting new acquisition.
Chalker says, "Why in the world would anyone want one of them things!
They're like driving a dump truck" (referring to the pedal action).
The excitement of 'stepping into the past' that Herb speaks of
above was totally lost on Chalker!
~Russ

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