a newbie question - how to play a dim chord on E9th

[Tom Wolverton]

I can play a dimished chord on non-pedal with some careful slants. What's an easy way to pull it off on regular Emmons-set-up E9th pedal steel? (3 pedals, 4 knees).

[Tucker Jackson]

Here's one way: slide back one fret from the 'no pedals' position and use the E-raise lever (usually called the "F lever"). This gives you a simple diminished triad.

So, C diminished would be at the 7th fret with the E-raise lever.

[Bobby Bowman]

It's simple Tom,
Actually there are several ways, but probabley the simplist one is with your "F" lever (the one that raises you 4'th and 8'th strings "E" a half tone, which is probably your left knee left).
Simply play strings 8, 6 and 5 with the lever engaged. If you're on the 3'rd fret "G", you will have created a G# deminished. If you want it to be a G deminished, just back up one fret or minus one.
BB

[Rick Schmidt]

Hey Tom...you can also add the 9th string to that for the 4 note diminished 7 chord.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

pedals A& B engaged w: Lever E that lowers strings 4 & 8 a half tone/step
& w: lever V (vertical) that lowers string 5 a half tone/step
on strings 3 4 5 6 7 8

[Greg Cutshaw]

Just as CrowBear said above or you can just push the A pedal half way. Here's an example of the full sound this produces. There are 4 separate diminished chords in the example below. Each tab segment with an "S" on the 5th string is a diminished chord. However you get there, S just effectively means a half tone raise on string 5. I used split tuning to get there but a half pedal raise on the A pedal works very well also.


Hear It!


Tab in pdf format





Greg

[Bobby Bowman]

To explain a little further,,,,
A major triad is the 1'st, 3'rd and 5'th tones of the scale. On the open E-9'th tuning (no pedals or levers) it is the 8'th string E (1'st tone), 6'th string G# (3'rd tone) and the 5'th string B (5'th tone).
The rule for a deminished chord is to lower the 3'rd and 5'th tone by 1/2 tone (one fret), You probably don't have a pedal or lever that does exactly that.
However, you do have a lever that raises the 1'st tone a half (the "F" lever) which accomplishes the same value of note distance intervals between the three notes (sorta' like musical math).
Do yourself a hugh favor and study and memorise the very basics of music chord theory. It will open a whole lot of musical doors and understanding of how and what makes different chords.
There are usually several ways to "skin the cat", so to speak.
BB

[Herb Steiner]

One thing nobody mentioned is that you have to hold your mouth right.

[Earnest Bovine]

Diminished triad (G# dim) is available on E9 using no pedals, open strings G# B D in several inversions. Most useful is probably strings 5 6 9.

Diminished 7th chord includes a 4th note (F) but in a band playing situation, 3 notes is often enough, and may even sound better than a 4 note chord.

[Adam Goodale]

One thing nobody mentioned is that you have to hold your mouth right.

Loessberg told me its easier to hit the half pedal if you lean your upper body to the right a little bit.

[Fred Glave]

Another good place to grab a diminished triad is on strings 2, 3, and 5 with 2nd string lowered 1/2 step.

[Tom Wolverton]

Thanks to all. I've been playing basic dim chords for a long time and know how to build them. However, I was looking for how you guys do 'em quickly and easily. Yes, the F-lever is the most obvious option. Many thanks for all of this. I got some ideas of better ways to "skin the cat". And, yes, Rick, a fuller dim chord was also what I was looking for. Thanks for the tip. (Norm said "Hi" back to you last night, by the way).

Adam, when I half pedal A and lean like that, the band accuses me of passing gas while playing. : )

[Ray Minich]

Isn't the scale in chords?

1 maj
2 min
3 min
4 maj
5 maj
6 min
7 dim
8(1) maj

I find that 7 to be a pain in the @$$.

[Rick Schmidt]

I used to play for a salty old honky tonk singer who would typically call off a song like; "okay boys...this un's a forty five eleven kick off, 2 down...play a diminished & you're !@#$% finished!"

[Tom Wolverton]

Now to hijack my own thread. Merle Haggard was great last night. They played a western swing tune and Norm played a super solo on C6th. It looked like he played it all wo pedals or KLs, and yes, I heard a dim chord in there.

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Ray, i know many consider/play the 7th degree as a diminished
actually it's a minor flatted 5 ( mb5 / -b5)

[Ransom Beers]

One thing nobody mentioned is that you have to hold your mouth right.

Ah ha',problem solved ,Thanks Herb!!!!

[Fred Glave]

Tom, I think all that needs to be done is to lower the 3rd and 5th interval 1/2 step to create the diminished. This can be done by only striking those tones and can be done without pedals or levers on C6 or E9. As long as someone else in the band is hitting the root, all you need is those two notes lowered 1/2 step and it will sound full. Even by striking the lowered 5th by itself can give a diminished feel.

[Earnest Bovine]

In traditional harmony (see Walter Piston), it is much simpler. There is no need to consider altered thirds and fifths. The diminished triad is simply the triad built on the 7th degree of the scale. For example B D F in the key of C. It usually functions as a dominant resolving to C. It is often called V7 with root omitted. So there is no need to look outside the major scale to find it. Just play V7 with no root. We all do it all the time.

Similarly the diminished 7th chord is the seventh built on the leading tone, with its seventh lowered a half step. Think B D F Ab in the key of C. If it functions as a dominant chord, it is equivalent to call it V7-9 with root omitted.

[Rick Schmidt]

I've been playing bass on some Gypsy jazz gigs lately, and I just thought I'd mention how much the rhythm guitars use the same diminished chord form, *1-6-b3*(in that order ...low to high) for everything!
It functions as a minor 6 chord, a dominant 7 (with the 5th in the bass), and of course as a diminished chord. I've always wondered if that sound became so prominent because of Django's famously deformed hand? When you see pictures of him, his gnarled hand is perfectly shaped for that chord, ready to fly into those lightning fast arpeggios with his 2 good fingers.

Much in keeping with Pat Martino's diminished chord theory ideas, most of the other chords are found just by raising or lowering just one note in that pattern by one fret.

btw...Tom is already a great musician, he's just new to E9 and pedals.[size=0][/size]

[Jim Loessberg]

Adam,

I might have said it was easier for me to play a half-pedal to get an augmented chord. I would usually slant the bar to get a diminished but I am getting lazier these days and use the knee lever from time to time.

Best,

Jim

[Dean Parks]

Rick-

Re your Gypsy rhythm acoustic insight: I assume the low note is on string 6? If so, that is popular because there are only wound strings involved, so when you pound it, it barks. The spread between str 3 and 4 is also good for spread without mud. Good for big band rhythm too.

[Brian McGaughey]

In traditional harmony (see Walter Piston), it is much simpler. There is no need to consider altered thirds and fifths. The diminished triad is simply the triad built on the 7th degree of the scale. Just play V7 with no root. We all do it all the time.

Great way to look at it. Three notes stacked on the lines on the staff starting on B in the key of C!

Rick, I can't figure out how a recipe for a dominant7 chord is found in the 1-6-b3 interval. There are 9 half steps between the 1 and the 6 and 6 half steps between the 6 and the b3 in the gypsy jazz chord you described. (This is how my mind works...always 1/2 tones!). If the low note becomes the b7 and you go up nine halfs you're to the 5th, go up 6 more halfs and you're at the 2b, right?

[Rick Schmidt]

Yeah Dean...the the low string is what I'm talking about! Those guitars hit hard with those super heavy Gypsy picks really do bark don't they! I've always used the same chord form with a lighter touch to play what I thought was "Freddie Green" style...now I hear he would simply imply that chord with just one note sometimes.

Brian... on fret 7, you have an E7 (w/no root) with a 5th in the bass (string 6)...string 4 becomes the 3rd and string 3 becomes the b7 (remember I'm talking 6 string guitar here)

[Earnest Bovine]

Here is the chord Rick describes. E7 with root omitted is G# dim triad.

Add E to become E7
Add F to become G# dim7 (= E7-9 root omitted)
Add F# to become G#m7-5 (=G# half-diminished)
Add nothing to imply any of the above chords, or Bm6 etc.

If you bring B up an octave, and D down an octave, for a closer voicing, you have the easy G# dim triad on open strings 5 6 9 of E9 steel guitar: