Cheap Instruments

[Larry Miller]

b0b's thread "Just One Thing" got me to thinking... focusing on this quote

Your brain was made by the finest maker in the universe. It can produce the best music from the cheapest instruments imaginable

There are some very good quality guitars being made nowadays in Korea and China. The fit, finish,playability and sound is amazing IMO. Most will say "this guitar will do until I can afford a Gibson." I wonder what makes us "Brand Hos?" Things might have been different if Paul McCartney had £100 pounds to spend on an instrument. In his own words "In Hamburg in the shopping area in the centre of town there was a little shop....I remember going along there and there was this bass that was quite cheap. I couldn't afford a Fender. Fenders even then seemed to be about £100 pounds. All I could really afford was about £30....So for about £30 I found this Hofner violin bass. And to me it seemed like, because I was left-handed, it looked less daft because it was symmetrical."

[Erv Niehaus]

A very interesting post.
I have wanted to pick up a "Mandocaster" for quite a while. The original Fender models are going for a premium and there was one made by Eastwood that was priced quite a bit cheaper.
However, I stumbled across one a while back that was priced below $160, delivered. I just couldn't pass it up. It arrived yesterday and it is the cutest little solid body mandolin you've ever seen!

[Joachim Kettner]

I should have bought the bass back than, because to my knowledge, it's not made anymore.
The Höfner bass is still made, and it's not expensive.

[Dave Hopping]

The 30 pounds Paul spent on the Hofner represents by my very rough estimate somewhere between $500 and $600 in today's US dollars.While it's true Hofner does offer bottom-level basses for less than that,their "real" basses are north of $2000USD,sometimes a considerable distance.

I'm not disputing that Far East instruments offer good quality for the price,but it bears repeating that the average Chinese worker earns the equivalent of $1.36USD per hour.In that country,there is as close to zero environmental/workplace safety oversight as makes no difference,nor is there anything resembling a social safety net.It logically follows that any product made at such minimal cost can be offered at very attractive prices.Contrariwise,a US manufacturer behaving that way would find itself shut down,its assets forfeit, and its owners and managers under indictment,if not behind bars.

I can't do anything about US trade policy except to buy American whenever there is a choice,and when there isn't,to buy used American or do without.I'm just grateful that the pedal steel market has so far been too small and our instrument too precise,labor-intensive and complex to build for Squier,Epiphone and the other internationals to bother with.May they continue to ignore us.

Bob's right to say that a great player can do his magic on even the most minimal of instruments,but if he has a quality instrument,he can do more magic.

[Erv Niehaus]

Dave,
I hope you drive an American car.

[Dave Hopping]

Erv-
Here ya go

[Larry Miller]

Dave, Your HHR was assembled in Mexico. The workers, I am sure, received the same wage as U.S. workers, but, It is a Chevy.....FWIW 30 pounds in 1961 was equal to $84.oo.

[Larry Miller]

Dave Hopping wrote

While it's true Hofner does offer bottom-level basses for less than that,their "real" basses are north of $2000USD,sometimes a considerable distance.

The high price of Hofner basses today, I would say, is due to the fact that Paul McCartney bought a cheap one in Hamburg.

[Dave Hopping]

Larry,I'll assume you meant to tell us that 30 pounds in 1961 was worth USD$84 in 1961.The Inflation Calculator website says that USD$84 in 1961 represents the purchasing power of USD$605 today.Let me offer you a hearty mea culpa for being $5 outside of my previous estimate of Paul McCartney's cost for his Hofner.

As to my HHR's Mexican origin,my having learned that only after delivery is irrelevant to the charge of hypocrisy to which I now admit guilt,and throw myself upon the mercy of the SGF.

[Ron Whitfield]

Is it worth $1000 + - per guitar/whatever to buy solely American?
Maybe if your $$$ fortunate. But if I'm buying a new standard electric there aren't but a very few that I'll consider that are 100% US made, and cheap. My bought new Asia made PRS Santana SE cost me $500 and is unreal in every aspect. Same with my bought new $500 Fender Mex custom shop Strat, just great. It's all about the level of quality control.

But Gibson hasn't gotten the message yet, so I'll be buying an LP style Asian made Agile, and a Brice fretless 5, asap from Rondo Music for a total of 1K.

My list of prospective steel buys are a different story tho. We have some killer makers, but each one I'm interested in costs well over 1K each new.
And I'm all in, eventually.

[Kevin Hatton]

Most good players don't use cheapo instruments. I wonder why? Dave Hopping, good points. Free trade anyone?

[Dave Hopping]

Everyone complains that American is too expensive...
If you were a VERY canny shopper in 1958 you could get a new Strat w/c for right around $250.If you weren't so canny,you'd pay list of about $325.$250 in 1958 represents $1860 in today's money. An AVRI '57 Strat goes for $1700 at the online stores-less than its 1958 counterpart's street price.If you're financially challenged,an American Standard goes for $999,or $134 in 1958 money.Even though they're comparative bargains,they're still too expensive for many peoples' taste

I've been tempted in past time to ask rhetorically why so many musicians are such cheapskates,but have come to believe it is more complicated than that.The Pacific Rim instruments are the equivalent of the Silvertones,Kays,Harmonys and Danelectros that people bought to play while they were saving up for their Strat.The difference is that while the Pacific Rim instruments occupy the same price point,they're better than the Danos,Kays,et cetera they replaced.They should be, because even if they're knockoffs they ape better designs.But they still don't quite measure up to the real thing because they ARE knockoffs,and the price point is where it is mostly because of the sweatshop wages those manufacturers pay their employees.

No,I don't think guitar players are cheapskates.I do think that people in this country consider themselves poorer than the Fifties generation,and deserving of their perceived diminished stature.So they don't/can't save for the real thing and do accept substitutes.

[Chris Reesor]

[quote=".The Inflation Calculator website says that USD$84 in 1961 represents the purchasing power of USD$605 today."

So 100 quid for a Fender would be roughly $2k now; no wonder Paul bought the Hofner.

Anybody know what John and George were playing in the Hamburg club days? I'd bet it wasn't the Rick and Gretsch they played on Ed Sullivan in '64.

CR.

[Leslie Ehrlich]

So they don't/can't save for the real thing and do accept substitutes.

The only 'American' guitar I own is my PSG. My two acoustics are made in Canada and the rest of my guitars are imports. My Strats and P-Bass are the real thing - they just aren't made in the USA.


By the way Dave, what make is that hearse? Is it a Superior or a Sayers and Scovill?

[Dave Hopping]

Leslie-thanks for asking.It's a '73 S&S.Definitive Detroit iron;22 1/2 feet long,6,000 pounds.Here are a couple more views.

Dash-radio delete,manual switches for rear compartment and backup lites.A/C,power windows,no cruise.



Rear door and sliding extend table.Rear compartment is 9 1/2 feet from the divider to the door.Great for carrying gear.

[Larry Miller]

Glen Campbell and his Teisco T-60







The Edge playing Epiphone Sheraton

[Larry Miller]

Chris Reesor wrote

Anybody know what John and George were playing in the Hamburg club days? I'd bet it wasn't the Rick and Gretsch they played on Ed Sullivan in '64.

The Rickenbacker is the very same one he played on the Ed Sullivan show. 1st pic George's guitar is a Futurama
2nd pic George's guitar is a Gretsch Duo Jet

[Jerry Overstreet]

I've seen several pickers down on Nashville's Lower Broad burning up some "cheap" Tele Squier®.

My Indonesian Squier 51® came right out of the box with nicely finished fret ends, a playable set up and perfect finish. Low end instruments are much, much better than they were 30 yrs. ago. There's still the issue of the electronics of course, body materials and sizing but some of these are surprisingly nice.

I think that's due in large part to CNC machinery and other modern tooling.

They're still considered entry level or low end maybe, but many times the quality is on a level with the branded stuff.

[Larry Miller]

Jerry Overstreet wrote

I've seen several pickers down on Nashville's Lower Broad burning up some "cheap" Tele Squier®.

The Classic Vibe Mahogany is beautiful

[Erv Niehaus]

I have a guitar player who jams with me on occasion.
I have quite an arsonal of guitars and he has tried out quite a few of them inclusing Fenders, Martins, Gibsons, Gretsch and etc.
I also have a couple of Korean made Samick guitars and out of the whole litter, he prefers the Samick.

[Dave Hopping]

...

Dang,Larry-
You excised the record of my sentence to acquire a SQ '51.Here it is,anyway.


Had to file the fret ends,but otherwise OK as far as it goes.Like b0b said,a good player can do magic on even the most minimal instrument,and this would be it.If I had to gig it,I could get by,but it would fail quickly under the heavy professional use some people pay extra to have the appearance of when they buy "relic" or "roadworn" instruments.

[Jerry Overstreet]

What US built instruments can you buy? Gibson, PRS, Fender US instruments are just way too pricey for some of us. IF I had my 'druthers, I'd have an LP Custom, a McCarty, an L5, old Super 400, Original US built Tele, but no dice on my budget. So what's a guy to do? Just not buy anything if he can't buy these?

I spent a long, long time searching for an archtop Gibson, Guild, Gretsch etc. before settling for the Samick. After I purchased it, I decided I probably wouldn't know the difference if it weren't for the label, which in this case is MOP inlaid in the headstock. No cheap stick on decal.

Epiphone, Gretch Electromatic, some Fenders and PRS and many other name brands are Korean, Chinese, Mexican etc. built. Because it has a US named label doesn't necessarily equate to US built.

Speaking of Samick, Erv: Spruce top, nicely constructed wooden pickguard, pretty MOP and abalone inlay work. What's not to like?


...and the '51

[Dave Hopping]

Right you are,Jerry.We're poor,but we don't want to admit we can't afford what our parents could.So we buy knockoffs and tell ourselves that because they weren't made here,they're better.The mark of a good counterfeit,even a licensed one,is people think it's better than the real thing.

[Larry Miller]

Dave Hopping wrote

Dang,Larry-
You excised the record of my sentence to acquire a SQ '51.Here it is,anyway.

Here it is :
Dave Hopping Wrote

As to my HHR's Mexican origin,my having learned that only after delivery is irrelevant to the charge of hypocrisy to which I now admit guilt,and throw myself upon the mercy of the SGF. Laughing

I am sorry Dave, no quarter. As your punishment, you must purchase a nice Indonesian Squier '51, as Mr. Overstreet describes, above.

Nice guitar Dave, it is beautiful!

[Joachim Kettner]

The Epiphones of MCCartney and John Lennon (Casino)... I can't imagine that the were cheap to buy at that time.

Epiphone instruments made between 1957 and 1969 were made in the Gibson factory at 225 Parsons Street and on Elenor Street. Only solid guitars with flat tops and backs were made at the Elenor Street plant (both Gibson and Epiphone) in Kalamazoo, Michigan. These Epiphone instruments were effectively identical to the relevant Gibson versions, made with same timber, materials and components, and by the same people as the contemporary equivallent Gibson guitars. They shared the Gibson serial-number sequence.

They became a lot cheaper after that period