Is rap actually music?

[John Ed Kelly]

I have not been back for a while due to commitments, but there have been more replies posted than I thought would ever occur.

A few have asked me for my definition of music, but I wonder why? It seems that most people will have subtly different versions, so I will offer the version which is in my dictionary.

The Australian Oxford Dictionary 2e/2004 defines MUSIC as follows:

‘’….the art of combining vocal or instrumental sounds to produce beauty of form, harmony and expression of emotion…..’’

It further defines RAP as:

In addition to ‘’knock’’ ‘’blow’’ etc……..it says in item 5a ‘’a rhyming monologue recited rhythmically to pre-recorded music. 5b ‘’a style of music with a pronounced beat and words ''recited rather than sung’’.

So, where does that leave us? The words ‘rhyming monologue’ and ‘style of music’ stand out to me. I also think that ''recited rather than sung'' has some bearing on the main argument. This all took my mind back to the cold war era of the beat poets.

Doubtless we all are aware that there existed a movement where a group of contemporary poets would recite their lines to an accompanying jazz beat. Substitute rap for jazz, and I believe we end up with two fairly similar modes of communication. So, now whether ‘’beat poetry’’ and ‘’rap’’ can be called music really depends on the listener.

One group of listeners may be grooving to the poetry, in which case they would see it as such. Another group of listeners will be grooving to the beat (jazz or rap) and will take it as music. The choice is yours…………..and mine.

I personally put beat poetry and rap in the same bag, but as always in such open ended debates, the jury is out, and will remain out...........seemingly forever..........as evidenced by the variety of responses.

[AJ Azure]

I have not been back for a while due to commitments, but there have been more replies posted than I thought would ever occur.

A few have asked me for my definition of music, but I wonder why? It seems that most people will have subtly different versions, so I will offer the version which is in my dictionary.

The Australian Oxford Dictionary 2e/2004 defines MUSIC as follows:

‘’….the art of combining vocal or instrumental sounds to produce beauty of form, harmony and expression of emotion…..’’

It further defines RAP as:

In addition to ‘’knock’’ ‘’blow’’ etc……..it says in item 5a ‘’a rhyming monologue recited rhythmically to pre-recorded music. 5b ‘’a style of music with a pronounced beat and words ''recited rather than sung’’.

So, where does that leave us? The words ‘rhyming monologue’ and ‘style of music’ stand out to me. I also think that ''recited rather than sung'' has some bearing on the main argument. This all took my mind back to the cold war era of the beat poets.

Doubtless we all are aware that there existed a movement where a group of contemporary poets would recite their lines to an accompanying jazz beat. Substitute rap for jazz, and I believe we end up with two fairly similar modes of communication. So, now whether ‘’beat poetry’’ and ‘’rap’’ can be called music really depends on the listener.

One group of listeners may be grooving to the poetry, in which case they would see it as such. Another group of listeners will be grooving to the beat (jazz or rap) and will take it as music. The choice is yours…………..and mine.

I personally put beat poetry and rap in the same bag, but as always in such open ended debates, the jury is out, and will remain out...........seemingly forever..........as evidenced by the variety of responses.

Actually the first works perfectly to include rap. Vocal refers to anything produced by voice. That could spoken or sung. The emotion aspect is a bit of a red Herring because you can write music by only using math and theory and it will be completely musical but totally unexpressive. There we start to define creativity even tougher. Anyway I think you inaveryantly proved that rap and beat poetry is in fact musical by using the Oxford definition as your litmus test

[John Ed Kelly]

''Anyway I think you inaveryantly proved that rap and beat poetry is in fact musical by using the Oxford definition as your litmus test''

Again, you seem to be interpreting my words. Oneupmanship is not my game, you should know.

I don't think I was making any ''inadvertent'' comment at all. In fact, I was rather coming to the view that rap is music to one group of listeners, and poetry to others. I include myself in the latter group.

If anything, I have shifted my view to accommodate the views of others. It's an aspect of discussion and debate which should be practiced by anyone who believes he or she is capable of absorbing the counter views of others, whilst not necessarily actually agreeing with those views.

[Dave Mudgett]

John Ed - my earlier points were fairly simple. You were making a fairly technical point about whether or not "rap is music" (as opposed to poetry that is not music) without defining what you think music is, as if everybody should just implicitly understand and agree with what you mean. I think it's important to make that definition explicit, so that the discussion doesn't degenerate into polemics, as so often happens when this subject comes up.

I acknowledge that different people may view music differently. The Oxford (if there's a more Western-centric bastion of intellectual thought, I can't think of it) definition you quote:

The Australian Oxford Dictionary 2e/2004 defines MUSIC as follows:

‘’….the art of combining vocal or instrumental sounds to produce beauty of form, harmony and expression of emotion…..’’

depends entirely on how you view "vocal", "instrumental", "beauty", "harmony" and "expression of emotion". I think just about any organized sound could fit this definition, depending on how you think about these. For example, if you insist that "harmony" implies "Western tonal harmony", that leads to one set of outcomes, but many people think about the term "harmony" in a much more generalized sense.

Note that nothing in even this definition implies varying melody notes. I don't see how spoken word is ruled out in any way.

A couple of points on the definition of rap that you quote:

In addition to ‘’knock’’ ‘’blow’’ etc……..it says in item 5a ‘’a rhyming monologue recited rhythmically to pre-recorded music. 5b ‘’a style of music with a pronounced beat and words ''recited rather than sung’’.

1. Note that 5b acknowledges rap as "a style of music"
2. I think 5a is a fairly stereotyped, but not complete, view of what is being produced as rap.

BTW - I think it's pretty clear that you were not intending any insult. I totally agree that people will view things differently, and I think that's reasonable. What does bother me, however, is the way this kind of stuff is used by people who really do mainly intend insult, as I think this thread and many prior discussions on this forum demonstrate.

[Charles Davidson]

Hey Carson,You hit that nail dead on buddy,mums the word, Some of this crap is just funny,when I read it it just reminds me I need to clean my best buddy's [THOMAS KATT'S] litter box,Have a happy day and good picking to you. YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

[AJ Azure]

''Anyway I think you inaveryantly proved that rap and beat poetry is in fact musical by using the Oxford definition as your litmus test''

Again, you seem to be interpreting my words. Oneupmanship is not my game, you should know.

I don't think I was making any ''inadvertent'' comment at all. In fact, I was rather coming to the view that rap is music to one group of listeners, and poetry to others. I include myself in the latter group.

If anything, I have shifted my view to accommodate the views of others. It's an aspect of discussion and debate which should be practiced by anyone who believes he or she is capable of absorbing the counter views of others, whilst not necessarily actually agreeing with those views.

I stand corrected Re-reading you post i can see you've come around. Cool.

[Mike Neer]

Guys, quit with the insults already. You're derailing an otherwise decent thread.

[Dave Hopping]

Mike,I think this is not so much a matter of derailment as it is "Occupy the SGF".

[b0b]

I have deleted the posts on this page that were unrelated to the topic. Personal insults have no place on this forum. Attack the issue, not the person.

Thanks to the gentleman who called this to my attention.

[AJ Azure]

Absolutely no problem b0b for the record I was so very patiently trying to not go that route. You'll note on the average I've pretty much avoided that sort of nonsense.

[chris ivey]

the rap music i encounter elicits rudeness, disrespect, vulgarity of morals and spirit. and a nod to ignorance in some cases. place this over a manufactured repetitive brain thud and a redundant copycat style of movement and attitude and promotion of violent presentation of self absorbed ego and...er...evidently this is the music of some culture...not mine.

[AJ Azure]

the rap music i encounter elicits rudeness, disrespect, vulgarity of morals and spirit. and a nod to ignorance in some cases. place this over a manufactured repetitive brain thud and a redundant copycat style of movement and attitude and promotion of violent presentation of self absorbed ego and...er...evidently this is the music of some culture...not mine.

we effectively listed all the other music that could easily list similar aspects and if that's all you've encountered then you haven't been barely scratched the surface. Honestly, there's really no constructive purpose for more comments like these. There is just no substantive contribution. It's just piiing on and eventually causes degeneration in to arguments. On the other hand if you care to contribute some sort of empirical data, anything in the way of a practical debate/ discussion anything but this ongoing, grump speech that seems to accompany any topic that push some people's comfort zones beyond their small self imposed box (like all the is country dead posts, we hate modern country, etc.), please please do contribute.

[Barry Blackwood]

Honestly, there's really no constructive purpose for more comments like these. There is just no substantive contribution. It's just piiing on and eventually causes degeneration in to arguments. On the other hand if you care to contribute some sort of empirical data, anything in the way of a practical debate/ discussion anything but this ongoing, grump speech that seems to accompany any topic that push some people's comfort zones beyond their small self imposed box (like all the is country dead posts, we hate modern country, etc.), please please do contribute.

The question was, "Is rap actually music?" I took it as Chris contributing his opinion. Was it negative? Sure, but if we all thought rap was great, there'd be no discourse here. You can't just arbitrarily put down those whose opinions differ from your own, no matter how unfounded they may be.

[AJ Azure]

Honestly, there's really no constructive purpose for more comments like these. There is just no substantive contribution. It's just piiing on and eventually causes degeneration in to arguments. On the other hand if you care to contribute some sort of empirical data, anything in the way of a practical debate/ discussion anything but this ongoing, grump speech that seems to accompany any topic that push some people's comfort zones beyond their small self imposed box (like all the is country dead posts, we hate modern country, etc.), please please do contribute.

The question was, "Is rap actually music?" I took it as Chris contributing his opinion. Was it negative? Sure, but if we all thought rap was great, there'd be no discourse here. You can't just arbitrarily put down those whose opinions differ from your own, no matter how unfounded they may be.

Actually no. His observations had absolutely nothing to do with analysis of the medium as a music format. Those are all value judgements that have very little to do with the question at all. Contrary to popular belief just because, everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, does not mean it is a constructive or valid contribution. If he's not actually answering the question which is clearly a technical one not one calling for value judgements, it's really not an opinion worth the respect in this specific setting of inclusion under the everyone is entitled to their opinion heading. The question is an analytical and technical one. value judgements are red herrings of an inflammatory nature that have nothing to do with the actual answering of said question. They only serve to create discord not discourse. The question is not is rap, good music, is it popular, is it moral, is it respectful or any other form of value judgment. It's very clearly a technical question.

You'll notice that the pro rap is music contingent in this thread quite actively provided examples and theoretical analysis to support its' case. However, the anti contingent for the most part only made emotional opinions with out any substantive counter debate. Just because, someone has an opinion doesn't mean it's valid or appropriate to voice it. In this case if he's not answering the question at hand, it's a waste of bandwidth and only serves to cause conflict.
You're missing what I have an issue with. It's easy to try and dismiss my stance by saying I just don't respect someone's right to a differing opinion but, that's wholly incorrect

I have no problem with a differing opinion or someone not agreeing with me. In a valid way. Counter the argument intelligently by showing you comprehend the topic and even if I disagree 100% I will respect the differing opinion because, there is an effort placed towards constructive debate of the question. The value judgments based on little fact are lazy and not entitled to being respected as one person's opinion " in this case" because, they have nothing to do with the topic.
Put it this way an opinion is like flatulation. Everyone does it but, there's an appropriate time and place for the expulsion of it. If you want to start a thread like does it or should a musical genre's morality validate or invalidate it as a musical format, go right ahead. It's not a very sound argument but, at least those arbitrary value judgments could be said to be appropriate.

I defy you to present even one example supporting the invalidation of any musical genre based on its' moral content.

Differing opinion, go for it. but, don't expect respect if you're going to show no effort to actually address the topic with a thoughtful and constructive rebuttal. Respect is earned.

[b0b]

There are some things that people say are art, that I don't consider to be art. Whether rap is music or not - on one level it could be a technical issue as AJ asserts, but it's also a matter of opinion.

Myself, I have a hard time hearing the sounds that come out of a banjo as music. It just doesn't sound musical to me. I know that people disagree about it. There is some Celtic stuff, some bluegrass, and a few other so-called "musical genres" that contain so little musical content, in my opinion, that I can't really bring myself to call them "music".

AJ, you may see it as a technical issue, but I say it is a matter of opinion. Dictionaries are written by people trying to express the opinions of the majority.

People say that Andy Warhol is art. I disagree. To me it's just bad craftsmanship. That's my opinion, and it's as valid as anyone's. By one definition, anything that hangs in an art gallery is art. That doesn't change my mind at all.

Please don't quote my entire message. It just wastes bandwidth, something we really don't have a lot of at the server end.

[AJ Azure]

Apologies for the over quoting. OK see now your answer was not a value judgment. it spoke about the musical content not the moral content or more so the morality of the lyrical content. Although, you're getting into does a type of tone invalidate a genre as music and that's possibly a contradiction to the broadest definition of music but, it's still in the realm of a potential argument. Comparing it to another art form is a non-starter because, that's a much broader more eye of the beholder interpretable area. Music however complex is more easily definable.

If someone expresses an opinion that is so weak in its' foundation they shouldn't be surprised that holes are going to be shot in it. Seriously if someone wants to present a case that a moral value judgment is a viable factor to validating or invalidating a genre as music or not with out having to utilize a comparison to another medium ie strictly in musical terms, I'd love to see that opinion actually attempted at a justification. Entitlement to an opinion, ok sure but, expecting to not be called on it when it has so very little substantive support, now that's unrealistic. There's a really bad social trend these days that people fall back on "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it' as an excuse for lazy debate. Perhaps that is my value judgment on another's opinion but, if someone wants to present a reply and not to have it summarily dismissed so easily then they should put in the effort. None of us are stupid. I welcome an actual thought provoking discussion even if i end up being proven wrong. If there's actual justification, then i am more than willing to change my mind.

So b0b to follow your art comparison. I can see where we could take on a moral judgment on expressiveness and creativity. An even better example than Warhol would be Mapplethorpe. Truly a powder keg of controversy.

Now if we expand this topic to be can morality effect the validity to the creative process I think we have a different topic than than the original and much muddier but, still a very interesting topic. We're getting in to interpretation of the human experience because, you get culturalism, psychology, intent and a plethora of other qualifiers. Or another example I've seen does commercialism invalidate creativity.

By all means express a thoughtful opinion and contribute but, if someone's going to be lazy, much like throwing a stone or ringing a door bell and running like a child, that person should not then express shock when they get a response that invalidates their opinion. Opinion does not live in a vacuum. If it can in fact be disproved, it does become a weaker, unsupportable position. There's political correctness and common courtesy and then there is stretching it to the point of absurdity.
Getting respect, that takes effort.

[AJ Azure]

The Earth being round was once an opinion which was proven
So should we accept someone's opinion that it's flat as a valid just because, everyone is entitled to their opinion but makes no effort to back that up?

[Barry Blackwood]

OK, AJ, you say toe-mate-oh, and I say toe-maht-oh, and I'm leaving it at that.

[AJ Azure]

Tell you what. I'll throw in some peppers and onions let's make salsa! spiceeeeyyy

[chris ivey]

AJ,
let me respectfully put this in a technical manner for you. music comes from the vibrations of the heart. rap comes from the smoke of a crack pipe.

[Dave Hopping]

OK,so rap "music" can exhibit breathtakingly complex instrumental and solo/ensemble vocal rhythms-and ensemble dance steps- executed with flawless precision in real time.Nevertheless,the spoken-word component of that material can often be,and often is,densely packed with angry,racist,violent,obscene rants that many Americans frankly find offensive and threatening.

I'm certain that the Americans thus offended and threatened are most unlikely to excuse the material's speech content,expert presentation notwithstanding.

[AJ Azure]

AJ,
let me respectfully put this in a technical manner for you. music comes from the vibrations of the heart. rap comes from the smoke of a crack pipe.

wow that is about THE most ignorant comment I have read in a very long time. Kudos Chris you do yourself such a service.

[Theresa Galbraith]

I'd love for Robert Randolph to jump in on this one!
I can't believe some of these statement....

[AJ Azure]

OK,so rap "music" can exhibit breathtakingly complex instrumental and solo/ensemble vocal rhythms-and ensemble dance steps- executed with flawless precision in real time.Nevertheless,the spoken-word component of that material can often be,and often is,densely packed with angry,racist,violent,obscene rants that many Americans frankly find offensive and threatening.

I'm certain that the Americans thus offended and threatened are most unlikely to excuse the material's speech content,expert presentation notwithstanding.

Agreed. Certainly content of said music can turn people off, insult, offend, etc. I've never said that one is not entitled to be offended. Some people create material with the intent to shock.

The point has always been

a.)content does not dictate validity or invalidity of a musical genre

b.) There is considerably more in the rap and hip hop picture than the small cross section of offensive material of which the people voicing their disdain for are likely utilizing a dated experience and media stereotype created when there was media buzz about that type of rap (cop killer reference for example) rather than a fresh analysis.


You mention racism. The fact is the racism in such music comes about due to a subjugation of that cross section of society. Discrimination of race and class.
If anything it's protest to the discrimination levied upon them. To judge racism with stereotype is racism as well. Content as well. I don't say the content is necessarily excusable but, it is understandable.
There is always a back lash when a down trodden group says we refuse to take it any more. It usually comes out in their art first.
I could find the same if not more offensive content in Aryan rock music by the way and that is just hate speech having nothing to do with experienced abuse.

The whole women and money thing that's just an aspect of being poor and dreaming of ultimate opulence. Sexism and disrespect for women happens in this society in many ways and rap most definitely does not hold the lion's share of the offense. It's must easier to point a finger at something that looks flashy and in your face rather than looking at the daily offenses we allow to perpetuate.

All that said, none of it has to do with whether it's music. Now if we ask is it good or is it bad then we're 100% in personal opinion world and that's just a free for all that really would get us no where but, it's where those moral content issues come in to play.

[AJ Azure]

I'd love for Robert Randalf to jump in on this one!

LOL Theresa I've been thinking that ALL day

He is too much of gentleman to dignify the hate with response.

Thus song has been going through my head all day.
Sooo appropriate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24ZbzzIhS-w