Are these two grips commonly used?

[Hans Penner]

These are the four most often mentioned grips:

3__4__5__6
4__5__6__8
5__6__8__10

Why are these two grips not usually mentioned?

3__4
5__6
8__10

From what I can figure, all six grips produce inversions of the same chord at all frets.

Note: read the grips shown vertically.

[Lane Gray]

Actually, those two are the ones I use on the rare occasions I play three notes. I like the wide spacing.
Generally I think you'll find you'll make prettier music using diads instead of triads, especially when playing with others.

[Hans Penner]

So why, Lane, do we beginners get exhorted to learn the grips?
What commonly used diads do you suggest I practice?
And, when would it be good to play chords using four notes?

[Lane Gray]

As to the first, I dunno. I find that playing all three will often mask cool interplay between the two notes actually involved in creating the coolness. I'd advocate learning them all, and development of the judgment of which to leave out (generally the root, others on stage have that pretty well established)
The two diads I most often use are 5&6 and 5&8. Jeff Newman often advocated 4&6 using B&C.
Using 4 (or more) notes? When it's called for. Sometimes you may want a big bold statement of thirds, and you'll hit two of 'em. Or you want a 9th chord, hit 3,5,7 and 9.
First, learn how to play. That's easier than learning WHAT to play. Then comes learning what NOT to play.
You'll notice Tommy White only goes all Tommy White when it's appropriate.

[Dave Grafe]

Firstly, Hans, learning the grips is part of developing finger dexterity and accuracy, and when the perfect moment for a nice four-note chord arrives it's good to have it come naturally rather than be of a panic. A motivated learner will work on a balanced regimen of single- and double-note scales and arpeggios, from which foundation one can progress to the fatter three- and four-note passages in real time. Let me emphasize that we are ALL learners, and the revered masters still discover new things regularly, just like you do....

I use three-note grips a lot and and four-note grips on occasion (most often IV>I or V>I tags with strings 4,6,8 & 10 and pedals A+B), maybe it comes from many years of jazz and classical music. I generally prefer fatter passing chords, but I also endeavor to make the most of the tonal and dramatic possibilites of every single note opportunity, and sometimes it is that one single note that makes the rest of the ride sparkle. Balance and all...

Point and counterpoint, rythm and harmony, fullness and space, mix it all up right and the possibilities are endless. Doing the same thing all the time is its own penalty, try not to limit yourself to the things that you feel "exhorted" to do, but remember to also pay close attention to your own creative muse in order to find your own voice and vocabulary.

[Lane Gray]

I like the way Dave put what he had to say.
I guess I'd add that whenever anyone urges avoiding some melodic, harmonic or rhythmic device, knowing WHY to avoid it can help, because there are times when the very sound you usually want to avoid is precisely the sound that would fit.

[Don Hinkle]

Lane hit it right on the head for me.
I learned and used to use the 3 string grips exclusevly for the first year or so (been playing steel for 2 years, telecaster for 30 years) and
suddenly realized that most all of the cool licks and counterpoints are 2 notes.
3 & 5,5 & 6, 5 & 8, 4 % 6 (with B&C) are great.. 3 & 4 also if you can get your rig eq'd to let em ring good and strong.

Playing the extra note (3rd note in the grip) muddies up the expression from my point of view.
Obviously big jazz , or color chords (aug & dim) are great with 3 or 4 notes at a time!

Don

[Dick Sexton]

I like using 3,5,6 in certain places. I've run into experienced players that that never occurred to. Two note harmonized scales... Gold! And don't forget that Wes Montgomery sound of 5&10, 4&8 when you've got a good bass player to work against. And silence... It is a tool worth knowing about, that can make the next note you play pierce the heart of your listeners. I agree with all that has been said here...

I think I read on the forum somewhere, "see how many miles you can get out of a single note". Try it, not as easy as you might first think.

Also, nothing says you can't pick 3 notes, then add a few more for a monster chord, by letting the first 3 ring. In effect, building chords...

[Dave Grafe]

If you listen to the best you often hear lots of sweetly rendered single-note passages connecting the fat chords and vice versa....

When all is said and done there is little as powerful within the E9 system as what can be done diatonically with 3+5 using the A+B pedals. From there one learns how to use the 4 string to fill in the gaps when you like, as well as finding the open voicings that suit your needs.

[Clete Ritta]

...What commonly used diads do you suggest I practice?...

Harmony scales are often built on thirds or sixths. There are lots of different combinations that will yield the same notes, so once you figure out a scale with one grip, try finding where they are in other positions with other grips. For instance using strings 5 and 8 with the A pedal and E lower KL instead of AB and strings 3 and 5.

Regarding Lane's mention of Jeff Newman and the BC pedals, you can get a lot of mileage out of two note (double stop) scales using BC and either strings 3 and 5 or 4 and 6. The same thing is often done using AB with 3 and 5, but the nice thing about BC is that it works on both grips.

Clete

[Mark van Allen]

Great thread...
On the original question: I always teach those extra "wide" grips along with the four close grips. Some of the more orchestral players often use those grips. In my opinion, the diads do work better in many situations, but in smaller ensembles or less dense passages, the full three note grips add some weight or bombast.
As for using the grips as a teaching model, they're not just "grips", they're major chord stacks.
Understanding chord construction/extensions from the major triads allows one to color the music with everything from the basic suspended move to 7ths, 9ths, 13ths. Some of the real beauty and expressiveness of the steel is in those chord additions, and what better way to start learning chord construction than memorizing and "owning" the basic triad building blocks?

[Jerry Overstreet]

Don't over think it. Just play the inversions that fit the song you're playing. With so many, you can find all kinds of ways to play things that do not interfere with or get lost in the vocals or the instrument mix. That's why they're there. Otherwise, we could just play 6 and 8 string guitars.

You can play melody all night long with just 5 & 6. 8 & 10 alone are low frequencies that can easily get lost in the mix. There's some stuff with 3 & 4 especially using the E raise lever. Whether you're playing backup behind a singer or lead lines influence your choices as well.

Nothing wrong with triads in the right places especially in your instrumentals like at the steel clubs. You can stick those big fat low tones in those instrumentals too.

Not part of your question, but 4 6 & 9 using your C pedal and the lever that lowers 9 may not be common in some circles but gives beautiful melody lines in the right places.

Personally, 99% of the stuff I do includes the 5th string, occasionally just the 5th string.

I'll qualify my remarks by stating that I'm no great player so you may choose to ignore my comments. These are just some of the experiences that I have had.

[Scott Henderson]

This is a good thread...FWIW...I feel you should concentrate on all of the above. I feel it's vital when playing a 10 or 12 stringed instrument especially that accessing picking groups in an "unconscious" act. Of course as you progress you find many of the above scenarios (double stops, melody/chord transition, etc) are a big part of your playing. I still feel and preach it often that new players need to focus on a solid foundation. Learning all of these picking groups is just "basic training" for your right hand. MAny knew players over look this and it shows in their playing. Theory is great but if you don't have good mechanics you're gonna struggle. My "Fab 4" for good mechanics are.... Right hand structure, picking groups, bar pressure, and key scale...like i said for what it's worth....

[Hans Penner]

Its always interesting the things that come up as result of my initial post.
I find I always learn more then what I originally wanted to know.

I'd now to explain why I even started this post.

I had just come across the grips

3---4
5---6
8---10

That's when my original question came to mind.

I had devised an exercise around these six grips.

Play all six grips at each fret with the bar moving up or down as required.

On odd numbered frets the playing order of the chords is:

3---3---4----4---5---6
4---5---6----5---6---8
5---8---10---6---8--10

On even numbered frets its:

6----4---5---3---4---3
8----6---6---5---5---4
10--10--8---8---6---5

For a beginner like me this is taxing.

ps. For you that can see patterns in numbers, can you deduce the pattern I devised that results in the playing order of the chords?

PS. ps. Dave, I have copied your thought; "Try not to limit yourself to the things that you feel "exhorted" to do, but remember to also pay close attention to your own creative muse in order to find your own voice and vocabulary." to my desktop as I reminder to myself. Thanx

[Jerry Overstreet]

Sorry, I read your numbers horizontally v vertically. I knew that when I first read your post earlier, but forgot somehow when I started a reply. That's why my post doesn't address your topic properly.

Will study the reasoning in your latest post as I am interested in the results.

[Hans Penner]

Jerry, I too read my original post horizontally when I when went to explain why I'd started this thread.
I even started to correct that post.
I'm now wondering if others made this mistake too?
Also, I only began playing as of July, so from my point of view you are an accomplished pedal steel player.

I found the following explanation regarding the creation of diads; "They are two note chords that lack the third note of the scale."
So, based on the six grips shown at the start of the thread,

3---3---4----4---5---6
4---5---6----5---6---8
5---8---10---6---8--10

leaving out the strings now shown in red gives the diads?

I am missing something, however.

Of the diads mentioned in this thread, I can't figure out from which triad grips the following ones come:
3&4, 4&8, 5&6, and 5&10.

A couple of these,

3&4, 5&6 drop the root.

So, that leaves me wondering about

4&8, 5&10

because I know of no triads that use these strings.

Please, illuminate on how diads get formed.

[Herb Steiner]

Learning both grip inversions is essential. I was taught, way-back-when, that the 3-4-5 grips were called "closed voicings" and the 4-6-10 grips were referred to as "open voicings."

In other words, when the chord tones are voiced with the closest available harmony notes, it's "closed" and when the chords tones are picked from a different register, it's "open" voiced.

One of Dicky Overbey's signature sounds, to me, is the fact that he sometimes uses strings 3 and 10 diads instead of 3 and 5. It yields a high melody note with a very rich sounding harmony in the bass register, or vice versa.

[Brint Hannay]

Lloyd Green uses open triad voicings like 10-6-4 and 8-5-3 more than many. On "Bars of Steel" on his Lloyd's of Nashville album he even does a whole passage using 10-8-3 (and 10-7-3)--I don't think that gets used very often!

[Ben Feher]

My 2% of a dollor on this matter is that you should also be thinking about the mechanics of your grips in a more universal sense as far as how many strings the grip spans and what strings are played within that grip.

For example, the 3-4-5 string grip and the 4-5-6 grip. Your hang position should be exactly the same, since you are playing 3 strings all next to eachother. That hand position should be the same as if you were playing any 3 strings next to eachother, not all of them sound good obviously, but in certian situations they do. Like 5-6-7 with the A+B pedals down for an F#m. or 2-3-4 with the D lever for a E7th. So your "grip" is 3 strings wide and you play all of them.

Now, take the 6-8-10 grip. It spans 5 strings, but it skips two strings. the "2nd and 4th" string withing the "5 string span". Your hand position should be exactly the same for a 4-6-8 span or a 1-3-5 (try with A+B down). You can also have a 5 note span on 4-5-8... or 6-9-10, or whatever...

Essentially the way I look at grips is that my thumb and middle figure decide the span -- 3 strings or 4 or 6, etc... Then my pointer finger plays a note in the middle. 8 strings is the biggest span I can comfortably do, and there are not too many occasions where I'd need to, but having all the 4, 5, and 6 note spans with all the different "middle notes" being comfortable is a really really good skill to have. There is a lot of repition of the same hand positioning. The D chord with 6-7-9 with the B pedal is the same grip as the E open 5-6-8, which is the same hand position as 3-4-6, etc... There are a LOT of chords that work with strings besides 3-4-5-6-8-10.

Hope this helps.

[Cal Sharp]

It can sound pretty good picking 3, 5 and 8, really hard, mashing a pedal or two, maybe moving the bar to another fret, and then picking 4, 6 and 10 (or vice versa) while the first 3 strings are still ringing. So you've got 6 strings going, using the same chord grip, just moved down (or up) 1 string. This works pretty well going from a 1 to a 4, or a 5 to a 1, although it can get muddy if your lower strings are overriding the higher ones. Pick attack rectifies this.

[Walter Glockler]

Anything wrong playing strings 4 and 5 together?

[Cal Sharp]

Herb said:

One of Dicky Overbey's signature sounds, to me, is the fact that he sometimes uses strings 3 and 10 diads

Now that's killer.

[Brett Lanier]

It can sound pretty good picking 3, 5 and 8, really hard, mashing a pedal or two, maybe moving the bar to another fret, and then picking 4, 6 and 10 (or vice versa) while the first 3 strings are still ringing. So you've got 6 strings going, using the same chord grip, just moved down (or up) 1 string. This works pretty well going from a 1 to a 4, or a 5 to a 1, although it can get muddy if your lower strings are overriding the higher ones. Pick attack rectifies this.

I think I do just that for the intro to apartment #9 when it goes to the four chord. Six strings going, but somehow there's still plenty of definition between all the notes. With this kind of stuff, string 9 really opens up a whole new world of harmony.

[Alain-Yves Pigeon]

Hans,

Just for the sake of it, try your hand at the Woodshed Workshop #26, I Don't Believe I'll Fall In Love Today from Jeffran College. It's full of these large grips and a very good workout for the right hand fingers. It begins and ends on these voicings. What's more, it's also pretty well made by this genius Jeff Newman.

Best,

ayp

[Lane Gray]

Walter, because, if used with A pedal, you have both tones V and b7 or 3&5, I use 4&5 lots.