Excel Keyless U-12 Problems (Newbie Chris Hillman Saying Hi)

[Christopher Hillman]

Hi Everyone! Just thought i'd introduce my self being new. My names Chris Hillman (I’m not in the byrds) and i'm living in Manchester England. I thought i'd start out with telling you my set up and a asking a couple of questions.

I've got an Excel Superb U-12 (owned about 6 months)

I've been having a couple of problems lately though with it.

As i've read on here i'm not the only one having problems getting the 3rd string to stay on this guitar, but the main concern is when I’m bringing the string up to tension a lot of the time they break at the changer end (remember this is a keyless guitar and strung the other way round).

I've read a lot about these guitars and how the strings make a difference but nobody else seems to have that problem? So how does everyone else bring there strings up to tension before clamping the string? The idea of how this guitar clamps strings to me is that it acts a bit like a wire cutter with the amount of tension either side the grub screw.

I use a small device made by the last owner, which is a machine head that clamps to the guitar. This is a photo of it with a fake string as an example.




on the strings i have changed as soon as you get them to say a tone bellow there pitch and try to clamp them down they sometimes snap.

It must be a problem with the way i'm doing it because its not just one string.

I must say that i've not changed a full set of these yet in fear of this string problem, but now they are pretty shot at i really need to and thought its best ask before hand (i cant afford to buy that many spares).

this is the 3rd steel i've owned and love it to bits... but i've always been worried i'll break a string and never be able to get a new one to stay on at a gig or run out of spares.

Its an amazing instrument, but this makes me sweat a lot every time when i press the pedals at a gig.

Hope everyone’s having a great Christmas!

Thanks for reading!

[richard burton]

I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, but you are using the keyless tuner to bring the string up to pitch, you're not trying to bring it up to pitch with the clamped on tuner, and then locking the string with the grubscrews?

Anyway, here's an idea:

Could the grubscrews be removed, and a capscrew used instead (shown in red, in the unscrewed position)?

The string (shown in black) could be threaded through, pulled tight (by hand, after making sure that the keyless tuner at the other end of the steel is slackened off completely), then bent up and around the new screw, which is then screwed down on top of the string to clamp it.

Then bring up to tension with the regular keyless tuner

[Michael Johnstone]

On my Superb which is an earlier model the strings clamp on the other end but the grub screw and the need to pre-tension the string before clamping are the same. The first thing I do is make sure the tuning mechanism is backed all the way up so I have maximum travel available to bring it up to pitch after I do clamp it.Then I string it up so it's ready to clamp and grip the string with a pair of needle nose pliers,wrap the string around the pliers a couple times so it won't slip.I put the hex key in the grub screw socket and with one hand,pull the string up under the grub screw with the pliers till it matches the open E on the 4th string and clamp it down with the other hand - good and tight but not too tight. Then I tune it on up from E to G# with the tuning screw. Your little pretensioning gadget should make it even easier than all that. But the main thing that's gonna keep strings on that 25.5" scale guitar is you must use Jagwire strings - you can get em right here on this forum and they're not expensive. Besides the tone,incredible mechanics,compact size & weight,one of the best features about my Excel is that it never breaks any strings - even the 3rd no matter how long I leave them on.I'd also check the tip of the grub screw that actually contacts the string and make sure it has a smooth,flat end or it's just gonna cut thru the string. You can hone it down w/a fine jewelers file if that's the case.

[Malcolm McMaster]

Chris could I suggest a visit to Ronnie Bennett in Bebington, Ron is a first class builder and repairer of steel guitars and a gentleman to deal with, if he can't solve it no one can.

[Christopher Hillman]

Thanks for the input guys! I'll try some of the jagwires. i was told cobra coils would be the best too. Maybe i've been trying to tighten the grub screws to tight as well.

i do set the headstock key back to neutral, so once clamped i have the maximum tuning possibility’s and on the top two strings that worked well, it was just the snapping at the changer end that was the biggest problem

Michael do you use any re-enforced strings at all for the 3rd? i think the strings that have been on it including the original 3rd were on it for about 8 months. I just wanted a fresh set and it just seems a bit tricky.

Also i have one other problem that maybe you other UK steel players can help me with?(due to weather/humidity)
I pulled out my two packs of SIT strings and my pack of 11 gauge re enforced spare strings.(which started all this off) And all of these strings have a light surface rust on them!(which i know will make them snap on this guitar straight away) I'm guessing this is my fault because i keep them in my gig bag and they sometimes have to be in the car for a hours while im travelling or in cold rooms etc. Does anyone else noticed this problem? how do you guys store your spare strings? Although the thick strings would be ok im sure the non-wound ones would snap and are probably no use now as spares right?

Sorry if these questions are a bit newbie lol. I'm a bit new to the steel game even though i work quite regular i've only been playing for 3 years and im only 24 . So i may come out with some weird in-experienced questions lol.

[Gary Cosden]

Jagwire and CobraCoil are both excellent strings and both well worth trying. I have a 25" scale Sierra and once in a while I will have a third break while putting it on but like Michael's experience with his Excel once they are on and up to pitch string breakage is pretty much non existent. The strange and counter-intuitive thing I have found is that and .0115 or even a .012 will work fine as a third string on a long scale keyless guitar once it is on and up to pitch. A nice feature on your guitar is that you seem to have 2 screws to clamp the string with so you really do not need to ever over tighten one. It seems like a really well made guitar.

[Christopher Hillman]

Thanks Gary. yeah i guess it is a better idea having the two screws. maybe i should just do each quarter of a turn or something. Its a great instrument. i had a zum before which was another great instrument, but this has a much nicer pedal action and i like how the keyless pedals are much closer to the seating position.

Just need to get my confidence with string changing then i'll be set.

[Michael Johnstone]

I used S.I.T strings once upon a time because a friend gave me a few sets but back then I was playing 24" D-10s w/tuning keys. I found them to be as good or better than Ernie Balls and lasted as long. When I went to my 1st keyless 12 string(a 25" Sierra)I started having to deal w/pretensioning the 3rd and needing a little better strings to withstand the extra tension of a long scale. So Don & Tom at Sierra sent me some Kaman strings and I used those pretty much as long as I had that guitar 1993-2004. I used to get 5-6 all night gigs out of a 3rd string on that guitar compared to 2-3 all night gigs w/Ernie Balls or S.I.T.s on a 24" keyed guitar(Sho-Buds,ZBs,Emmons & MSAs).Of course that was the early 70s to the early 90s when strings weren't as consistant and broke a lot more. When I got my Excel in 2002 or so I still had a bunch of Kaman sets and when those ran out and you couldn't get them anymore,I started trying Jagwires cause everyone was raving about them. So that's what worked on this Excel guitar and nothing could work any better so I've stuck with them. I hear Cobra Coils are real good as well but I have no experience w/them.As far as re-enforced 3rd strings,I think I tried some Franklin strings like that once or twice but they were nothing special for my needs and would break easily on the longer scales - your milage may vary. If I was living in a wet,cold,humid climate or right on the ocean beach like I used to,I'd seal them in a strong ziploc freezer rated plastic bag with some of those silica gel packets used in camera cases and such. Rusty strings are no good.Here in the SoCal desert strings last forever just in the paper sleeves. I tried the .0115s and .012s on the Excel but for me the sweet spot for the 3rd string on a 25.5" keyless Excel is still a Jagwire .011. Once the installation issues,rough edges etc are sussed out,you should have no 3rd string breakage whatsoever and it should last till you change the whole set and it takes away all that worry. If I'm playing out constantly,I do change my 3rd more often than that like once every 10-20 4 hour gigs(2-4 weeks)just to be sure I don't break one on an important show - and plus after about that long they can stretch out,get thin spots and even if they don't break,they can get whiney,sour and weak sounding.I listen for that and change them accordingly.I usually buy 2 full sets and a dozen .011s right here off the forum and because of the nature of the Excel linear changer and the fact I don't have an acidic PH factor/sweaty hands,I'm good to go for a year or so.Wiping your strings down thoroughly(top & underneath)after every gig adds to their life too.

[Christopher Hillman]

Thanks for all the help on this. i'll be buying some new strings right now i think.

Just looking at the jagwires on the site and you can't buy them as universal can you? or do you have to make them up into a u-12 set with singles? also just typed them into google and it says they arn't shipping out at the moment till feb because of "a critical family situation", so i hope everythings ok there.

Thinking i might buy some cobra coils maybe this time because i could do with them soonish. then maybe try some Jagwires next time. hopefully they will be as strong too.

[Martin Weenick]

Chris, McMaster-Carr sells "soft tip" set (grub) screws in both metric and US thread. That may help a lot with your problem. If you can give me your thread size and length I will get you the part numbers.

[Roger Guyett]

Hi Chris -
I have an excel keyless 12 string and had exactly the same
problem with my 3rd string. I went through dozens of strings
trying to get a 3rd string on the guitar. Eventually, and after
getting lots of great advice from forum members, but unable to
fix the problem, I contacted Mitsuo at excel. He recommended
doing exactly what Richard suggested (his post with pic in this thread).
From what I could gather in my communication with Mitsuo (this was
Interesting as Japanese isn't my first language ),
the larger gauge strings should be held in place with the
retaining screws, but the thinner strings should be held by winding
around a retaining screw - as Richard suggests.
I haven't had the problem since.
They're great guitars - beautifully made.
All the best.
Roger

[Michael Johnstone]

I'd flatten and smooth the end (and the edges of the end)of the grub screws first.That should pin the string down without damaging it and remember - good and tight but not too tight. As far as strings,you can get Jagwires right now,right here on this site by clicking on "Strings" at the top of the screen - check it out. Then list your 12 strings by size and whether you prefer a .022 wound or plain on your 6th string(I prefer plain cause it twangs better and blends better with the 4th and 5th string)and just email B0B that list and take care of it by paypal or whatever.Like I said I usually order 2 or 3 full sets and a dozen .011s and I'm good for quite a while. I have a couple oddities on my tuning like a C# instead of a D# for my 2nd string so I just order custom sets made up from singles and it's a non-issue and the same overall price. If you like what's on your guitar but you're not sure about the gauges,measure them with a micrometer or just go with a standard U-12 set. You can start there and fine tune your string gauge preferences after you've played that guitar a while.This is a standard set:
1. F# .012
2. D# .015
3. G# .011
4. E .014
5. B .018
6. G# .022 plain or wound
7. F# .026 wound
8. E .030
9. B .038
10. G# .046
11. E .056
12. B .068

Some guys go a little lighter on strings 5,6,9,10,11 by a thousandth or two but these listed sound fatter,pull & lower easier and last longer in my experience. Also the strings and your bar should be made of different metals. So don't use stainless strings and a stainless bar cause it'll be noisy and scrapey.Therefore I use either a Jim Burden stainless steel or BJS chrome steel bar against nickle strings and that has the best signal to noise ratio and most pleasing tone to my ears and most would agree I think.So my advice - Jagwire nickle strings.

[Rick Kreuziger]

I'd flatten and smooth the end (and the edges of the end)of the grub screws first.

The stock Excel grub screws have a smooth round tip that bottoms into a rounded seat... flattening the tip would make matters worse and I'm quite sure the string would slip. At least that's how mine was built. I also found that you have to use both set screws on 1 through 6 strings or they will slip before getting to pitch.

It's funny now this string breaking problem is different on the various Excel 25.5" guitars. Mine was breaking them on the other end (ball end of string). I've had zero problem on the changer end and mine has the same two set screw style as the original poster.

As Roger & I discussed in emails, in my case, reinforced Ernie Balls are the only string that won't pop on my particular guitar.

Good to know the allen head cap screw option should I ever have problems on the changer end!

[Michael Johnstone]

The stock Excel grub screws have a smooth round tip that bottoms into a rounded seat...

I did not know that because mine is an earlier model with the allen head cap screws on the left end of the guitar. So yeah that sounds like another good Mitsuo idea especially with the two screw redundancy but I'd check the screw tip for rough edges anyhow.In fact I always check the entire string path and contact points for rough edges. In this case though it may be as simple as tightening the screws too much on a thin tight string.

[chris ivey]

i wouldn't worry about a little surface rust. use 'em til they break!

[Rick Kreuziger]

The stock Excel grub screws have a smooth round tip that bottoms into a rounded seat...

I did not know that because mine is an earlier model with the allen head cap screws on the left end of the guitar. So yeah that sounds like another good Mitsuo idea especially with the two screw redundancy but I'd check the screw tip for rough edges anyhow.In fact I always check the entire string path and contact points for rough edges. In this case though it may be as simple as tightening the screws too much on a thin tight string.

Agreed... sharp edges are a killer on the thin strings, especially on the 3rd string that's at or near it's maximum tension.

I thought the same thing about over tightening; in effect shearing it. I also wonder if Christopher is getting the string too close to the final pitch with the add-on winder and pulling it too far as the grub screws are drawn down.

[Roger Guyett]

In my communication with Mitsuo we also discussed a suggestion from him of actually bringing the string directly over the top of the finger and down to the cap screw. Just to reiterate here, this would be for the 3rd string or any of the higher strings...This would be a much more direct path for the string to take. But would require a channel or "ditch" (that was the english/japanese thing kicking in ) to diminish lateral movement. Not for the faint hearted !
I didnt do it - and went with Richard's string path. But its certainly logical and I thought interesting to see how he was thinking about this . My disclaimer here is: IM NOT RECOMMENDING IT!!!

Here's the image I drew, calling the "slot" a ditch (as that was the word he used), and he agreed that this was a potential approach....



One of the issues with the way the guitar is setup is that there's no "absolute" way to attach the string: you can (1) wrap the string around the cap screw or (2) thread it through and just use the grub screw or (3) change path of string....

[Christopher Hillman]

Thats intresting how he told you to cut that "ditch". I'm suprised that when they made these steels they desgined in the angle on top of the changer/cam. seems like a great place to cut strings.

I think i maybe am pulling them on a bit to tight at first. I usualy get my 11.0 G# upto an E before clamping (but at the time i went through about 10 strings till one stayed on breaking either end)

Do you think that the rubber ended replacement grub screws would let the string slip as was mentioned by martin in an earlier post? i was thinking of sending off for some?

sounds like the older Excel way of keeping the ball end at the bottom of the guitar and bringing it up to tension at the keyless end is a better idea.

[Rick Kreuziger]

Have any of you examined a broken string or the remaining end to determine exactly where it's breaking?
That would help pinpoint where the issue is.

After looking at my changer finger this morning, it looked to me like the exit hole at the top would be a spot where you'd want to create a little smoother & less sharp radius.
The angle cut where the string exits hasn't given me any trouble, however, I did do a light buff of them... nothing drastic, but just enough to soften it.

I'd bet a rubber tipped screw would allow the string to slip.

[Michael Johnstone]

There are no "rubber tipped screws". It would just be a regular steel inside hex head bolt of the correct thread size and length. I've seen guys put a small steel washer on there and wrap the string halfway around the head of the bolt but under the washer but that was mainly for the .068 size strings whose diameter was greater than the lip of the bolt.

[Mark Addeo]

Hello, I realize the post is years late. I just bought a used lefty Excel Superb D10. I haven't restrung it yet. I have some work to do polishing out some abuse on the front of the end plates, cleaning up smoke smell and TLC. Then I need to change the close neck back to some semblance of a C6 copedant from it's current one that know nothing about.

But I was pondering the purpose of two grub screws per string on the changer end and of course checking the SGF for any info when I came across this post.

After reading about the 3rd string break issues I got to thinking. Maybe the trick is a combination of all of the suggestions above (no soft tips screws though)

My Theory is that there are two grub screws so the lower screw can be used to hold tension on string, then once string is partially tightened but not close to pitch, use second screw to tighten and hold string while brought to pitch.

Here is my theoretical sequence of tuning:

1. insert new string and slide thru as designed.
2. Use a hand or needle nose to put light tension on string (taut but not tight).
3. tighten lower of the two grub screws only
4. use keyless head to slowly bring string tighter but not yet close to in tune.
5. tighten higher grub screw.
6. slowly bring string to pitch.

Just a theory. I will give it a try but I have to get some TLC going first before I'm ready to restring. Anyway, All the best, thanks for the great info and forum. Signed John come lately.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Congrats on the steel. I was counseling a facebook friend on this ebay guitar. I'm not sure if he was bidding on it but I'd given him a strong thumbs-up to go for it. I was wondering if he'd won it. Now I know.

[Sonny Jenkins]

I had bought an older model Excel (keyless,,,I'm keyless to the core,,LOL) that had the ball end on the left,,,along with the, in my opinion, poorly designed tuning fingers. Attaching and tightening the string down on the changer end seemed very awkward to me, being a Kline player. So, I changed it so that the ball end would be on the changer end, made a set of very simple, and fail-safe set of Kline-type tuning fingers that I always used on my little lap steels. Worked GREAT,,,very fast and easy to change or replace strings. Then I started trying to upgrade the underneath, spent hours trying to communicate with Fuzzy (Mitsuo),,,and more $$$$ than I wanted. Finally put it away for a few years,,,then,,when I saw the Underneath of Larry Agan and Bud Carter's ETS,,,Larry was kind enough to let me have the parts to convert it. I stripped everything, down to the wood underneath, put ETS rails, cross rods, bell cranks etc. Works and sounds GREAT. A friend (Jim Flynn, Lone Star Guitars) has it now doing some "tweaking" on it. When I get it back I'll post pics if anyone is interested. BTW, SIT strings were the only ones that would allow the low B to come up (or go down) to pitch on the long scale (which I love,,,sustain forever!!!!). Seems they have a larger diameter inner core on those big strings.

[James Quackenbush]

The 3rd string on the Excel is pulled about as tight as the actual string gauge can handle since the length of the scale ( Longer ) dictates a much higher string tension thank your typical steel with a shorter scale ... I agree with Sonny that the SIT Strings are the only strings that worked as a set on the Excel ...The 3 string can be replaced by "reinforced" strings from other companies , but with ANY string you purchase for this steel , they MUST BE new strings .....

I'm not sure how the newer Excels mechanics are , but the design on mine that was about 6 yrs old was not adequate for the 3rd string from just ANY manufacturer could be used .... Only certain strings as mentioned above could be used ... Personally I really like the way that Bill Rudolph designed the keyless setup on his pedal steels ( Williams ) ....There is no BIG BEND in the string yet there is still plenty of downward tension on the strings to eliminate buzzing .... Except for the 3rd string breakage problem , the Excel pedal steel STILL remains to be one of the most technologically advanced steels on the market today ...I would not hesitate to buy another one, and it is at the top of my list along with a couple of other pedal steels ....Jim

[Rick Kreuziger]

I still have your Excel Jim...

Mitsuo instructed me to file a ditch/groove in the tuning finger where the extreme bend is (left side of guitar).
I also had tried a temporary fix with adding a small pin on the finger for the ball end to hook on... this gave the string a very straight path.
Even with these measures, thee only strings that will survive are reinforced Ernie Balls. Regular Ernie Ball strings work too, but occasionally fail on install.
The SIT strings I purchased couldn't be brought up to G# without breaking. (Numerous other brands and various gauges I tried all break similarly).
Get out the gloves and eye protection..

I recently switched to Live Strings (great strings btw),
and even those will pop the 3rd string within a few pulls of the B pedal.

So my successful formula has been Live Strings U12 set and EB reinforced .011 on the 3rd. No breakage for as long as you want to play 'em.
I change the set every couple months, but I've let the 3rd string on for a year awhile back just to see if it'd break.. (it didn't).