Have We Outgrown The E9th Chromatic Tuning?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 1 Dec 2011 6:09 am

Perhaps he just didn't want to.
Tom Morrell was no slouch on pedal steel before he went back to the biscuit board, as did Herb Remington.
To say that the E9 tuning was the reason Jerry Byrd didn't switch to pedal steel is just silly, unless he said so. He could have used C6, or thunk up changes to put on his E13, a tuning I can't wrap my brain around.
I tip my imaginary hat to Jerry and Don, and all those who wrangle music out of THAT agglomeration of strings.

Bill, if you don't like E9, there's always C6 and Reece's Bb6. Or Ed Packard's C13.

But E9 has lotsa versatility and life left

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 1 Dec 2011 6:25 am

Lane, I suggest you check/measure the vertical angle of the changer in cold vs warm conditions. I am not familiar with ZumSteel, but on most PSGs the changer axle is secured to the top-plate and the lower-return stop-plate is secured to the bottom of the end-piece or frame. Depending on "material-mix" this may cause the changer to tilt slightly - the angle varying with the temperature, because the top doesn't expand/contract the same as bottom of frame with varying temperature on a given PSG.

If the stop-plate moves inwards relative to changer axle the string-tension goes up, and if the stop-plate moves outwards relative to changer axle the string-tension goes down. Add this potential to how distance between changer and keys vary with temperature induced expansion/contraction and the effect of temperature changes can go either way depending on how the PSG is constructed.

Case studies...

1: My GFI's frame contacts quite a bit when getting colder, which because of the way materials are distributed and changer is mounted, makes the stop-plate go inwards relative to the top-mount. As a result strings detune upwards, go sharp, more than can be "blamed" on the strings alone because the changer tilts ever so slightly and increase tension on the strings when cold vs when the frame is at room temp.

2: My original Dekley have the stop-plate connected to "distance blocks" under the top-plate - no connection with the frame, so changer-tilt is affected by varying string-tension but not by expansion/contraction of the frame. Some temperature related detuning on this PSG too, strings go slightly sharp when colder, but far less then what experienced on the GFI.

3: My modified Dekley has the stop-plate connected to frame, and the changer axle follows the laminated neck floating above the top-plate. Neck is about as massive as frame-profiles so time-factors are about the same. The effect of expansion/contraction on changer-tilt is mainly a result of where neck and frame are connected to each other - via the top-plate, and by accident more than anything the neck/frame connection is skewed in the right direction resulting in less detuning with temperature.

In my experience with the modded PSG over 15 years the strings don't all go sharp or flat with lowered temperature. Instead some go slightly sharp, some stay pretty well in tune, and some go slightly flat, which is as expected for strings of different core-thickness and under different tension. The spread disturbs a bit but the PSG is playable over quite a wide temperature-range - just - without retuning.

Can't say how far my modded PSG's "built-in temp-detuning correction" can be stretched, as I have only observed in the range from slightly below freezing up to uncomfortably warm rooms. The observed temp-range for the GFI and the original Dekley is even less, but they definitely detune more with temperature than my modded PSG does.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Dec 2011 6:33 am

Lane,

I've always liked the Nashville tuning better than all other available tunings. I'm a country boy. I'm not a Texas swinger, nor am I a jazz buff. I like pure country music. The E9th tuning is close, but no cigar, due to its hangups. I had mentioned that the G# sounded better to me in the 1st string position.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 1 Dec 2011 6:47 am

Georg, I've not undertaken an exhaustive study, largely because the guitar seems to stay in tune with itself (as long as strings aren't dead) as it moves.

It seems entirely bizarre, but as it seems to move in lockstep, I just decided not to look the gift horse in the mouth.

This winter, I expect to examine the behavior of the MSA.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 1 Dec 2011 6:56 am

You could always restring and rerod your guitar to follow descending order

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Dec 2011 8:35 am

Lane,

When I saw Herb Remington play in 1992, he appeared to be straight steel oriented. He relied mostly on two floor pedals and phenomenal bar slants. He has turned the best of heads by his one of a kind slants. I can't say what he's doing now. He's a great entertainer.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 1 Dec 2011 10:01 am

I have not outgrown the E9th tuning. Maybe you have - Keep evolving !!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Dec 2011 10:41 am

Bud,

I had some contacts at one time in Hillsdale, New Jersey. They were holding Steel Guitar meetings there almost 20 years ago. Have you ever attended any of those meetings? Before Lee Moore, The Coffee Drinking Nighthawk passed away, he booked a few appearances down there. I was invited, but couldn't make it at that time.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 1 Dec 2011 11:49 am

Bill - I have not heard about the steel meetings in Hillsdale. Wally has a jam once in a while over in PA. If you hear of such a thing in jersey, I'd love to hear about it ! Thanks !!!

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 1 Dec 2011 11:52 am

The aluminum frame of a PSG will have a higher coefficient of expansion than the steel of the strings. So the body will shorten more than the strings when the temperature drops, and the pitch will drop.

Some players will find that the E9th tuning does not suit their needs; they will move on. Many will be satisfied with it; the C6th tuning did not become extinct when the Nashville tuning became ubiquitous.

In addition to those two "standards," we have the sacred steel tunings, Cajun G, variants of Newman's "universal," and Zane King's refinements of the Zane Beck tuning. Also Sneaky Pete's B6 and Remington's A6, b0b's "Eight is Enough," and a lot of players tune down to D9th.

Some of us have moved to alternatives, others stay with the familiar. The question perhaps should be to the individual; have "you" moved on, not should "we" move on?

Zane King · Post by **Zane King** » 1 Dec 2011 1:20 pm

Sincerely a very interesting thread. Congrats!

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 1 Dec 2011 1:25 pm

Rich Peterson wrote:The aluminum frame of a PSG will have a higher coefficient of expansion than the steel of the strings. So the body will shorten more than the strings when the temperature drops, and the pitch will drop.

That is correct if the strings are anchored more or less directly in the aluminum frame. Apart from my CarpSteel (all aluminum body) my PSGs have strings anchored in/via a non-aluminum and/or composite top-plate / soundboard in such a way that the expansion/contraction of the frame with temperature does not have such a simple and direct effect on string tension/pitch.

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 1 Dec 2011 1:57 pm

A PSG with an aluminum neck would have the behavior I suggested, wouldn't it? The changer is mounted at one end, and the nut at the other.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Dec 2011 2:19 pm

Rich Peterson,

I want to acknowledge Zane King's comment by saying that I too enjoy reading written material that contributes to concepts that make a great deal of sense. It really is amazing to learn how cold temps can have a profound effect on certain chemical elements. Makes me wonder how well a steel guitar would remain stable, should it be made of silver and gold. That is to say, how much more could be done to arrest the subtle problems associated with detuning. It's encouraging to know that others have given much thought to what often appears as a puzzle. There are good days and bad days; lending to the theory that variable temperatures enter into the riddle. The "febrile" G# 3rd string of the E9th tuning, has made its bid to further add to the problem.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 1 Dec 2011 2:54 pm

Well, on my solid-aluminum neck modded Dekley the nut isn't in contact with the neck, there's a gap to take up the mentioned temperature induced changes. And, because of where the solid-aluminum neck is attached to the mika/wood top-plate - halfway up the neck, as the neck expands/contracts the bridge/changer position changes by approximately half the neck-length relative to the nuts, while the position of nuts and keyhead, that are individually secured to the top-plate, changes independent of the neck as they expand/contract within their own spaces on the same mika/wood top-plate.
The actual expand/contract behavior that affects the strings can be described, quantified and measured, but not simple.

On my GFI Sd10 the bridge/changer is not directly connected to the (hollowed out) aluminum neck - they are just mounted on the same top-plate supported by lengthwise aluminum profiles welded to the frame. That frame and the various parts mounted more or less directly onto it, clearly do not move in unison as the aluminum expands/contracts with temperature.
So, not possible to point to a simple behavior here either, I'm afraid.

As bridge/changer, necks, nuts and keyheads are held in position relative to each other in many ways, with variations even within same models, simple behavior-models for the effects of varying temperature become somewhat insufficient.

Rich Peterson · Post by **Rich Peterson** » 1 Dec 2011 4:03 pm

I have a Carvin six-string with a maple neck-through-body construction that goes sharp as it warms up. I don't think the steel truss rod is attached in a way that could account for that. Perhaps the ebony fretboard expands more than the maple, bending the neck back.

Otherwise, the maple wood expands more than the steel strings. But you are correct in that the instruments are complex combinations of different materials, and it is difficult to determine what does what.

But your description of the aluminum necks on your instruments raises a question for me. If the neck is not bearing stress by contact at each end of the string, how does it contribute to the sound of the instrument, and why is it on the instrument in the first place?

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 1 Dec 2011 4:08 pm

I believe a revised E9th tuning concept is long overdue. Perhaps ambitions commonly observed in builders of musical instruments would once again glow with enthusiasm, and reach new levels of imaginative changer creations. Mechanically terminating the temperature related tuning drift would insure the ultimate popularity of the pedal steel guitar. If we can fly to the moon, the feasibility is warrantable.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 1 Dec 2011 7:00 pm

Rich Peterson wrote:If the neck is not bearing stress by contact at each end of the string, how does it contribute to the sound of the instrument, and why is it on the instrument in the first place?

Good question, and the answer differs from instrument to instrument.

On some PSGs the neck is mainly a decorative element. Taking the neck off these PSGs will not affect tone much - at least not negatively (IMO), although overall rigidity and mechanical stability may be affected negatively.
If you take the neck off a pro PSG it may sound better, but not everyone will like how it looks and some may reclassify it to "student model" no matter how well it may sound and play...

Many wooden necks stop short of the roller nuts to prevent them from pushing the roller assembly out of position and/or the neck itself getting squeezed as they expand/contract with varying humidity. Aluminum necks should, and often do, have the same gap to reduce problems caused by temperature induced expansion/contraction - what we discuss here.
As long as the neck is tightened well near the bridge it will transfer vibrations and contribute to body-tone. For the neck to make contact with the roller nuts too just means it increases its uptake and transfer of vibrations from "the wrong end" of the PSG - really not all that useful on a "steeled" instrument.

An aluminum neck on a wood or mika/wood top can be tightened onto the soundboard in such a way that it sharpens the tone. Think of it as a metal-lip secured tightly near the bridge and vibrating more freely along its length towards the nut/keyhead, contributing to the body-tone of top-plate/soundboard/frame. Tuning this "tone-lip" is a matter of carefully adjusting how hard/loose the screws holding it is tightened, and the neck can even be "bowed" ever so slightly to get the desired "tone-lip" effect.

On my modded PSG the solid-aluminum neck carries the bridge/changer all by itself - no contact with top-plate/soundboard beyond 12th fret, so vibrations have to travel up and down the neck to excite the soundboard/frame. The roller nut assembly on this particular PSG acts more or less like a bar - which of course has no contact with the neck either.
As the bridge is the "solid point" string vibrations get transferred to and from the body on any PSG, the neck on my modded PSG "plays" a decisive role for this transfer and the resulting "body-tone" as it comes back to and through the strings/pick-up. Unlike on all other PSGs I have ever seen, or heard of, my modded PSG simply doesn't work without the entire neck/bridge assembly intact, in place, and tuned.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 2 Dec 2011 4:05 am

Georg,

Highly technical confabulation initiated contextually helps to resolve many of the riddles associated with variable pitch levels commonly brought about by sudden temperature changes. These varying densities known to exist in an assortment of musical instruments constructed dissimilarly, react with a multiplicity of irregular changes. The process of manufacturing a likeness doesn't always assure an equal response due to an assortment of subtle differences, not visible to the naked eye. Steel guitar manufactured facsimiles are imitations of an original concept; each having its own variable subtleties of tone due to composition differences of the elements used in manufacturing. It is foreseeable that selected string gauges, as well as diversified random tunings could produce a more desirable pickup response. I predict that alloys will eventually dispel the searches for the ultimate tonality.

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 2 Dec 2011 5:56 am

Bill Hankey wrote:Steel guitar manufactured facsimiles are imitations of an original concept; each having its own variable subtleties of tone due to composition differences of the elements used in manufacturing.

In other words: steel guitar production is mainly copy-cat activity with varying degree of success..?

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 2 Dec 2011 7:28 am

"Copy-cat activity" sounds a bit pejorative. The same could be said about the making of guitars, violins, trumpets, whatever instrument. Differences among instruments from different makers tend to be more along the lines of "tweaks" to a consensus configuration, or differing levels of meticulousness in attending to the details of materials and design. In each case, there may be a few with creative visions for improvements to existing configurations, while the majority of producers and consumers stick with what is seen as "tried and true". If there is general satisfaction with the existing form of the instrument, some innovations that are genuine improvements may fail to gain acceptance.

I'm a bit baffled by all the attention being given to temperature change here. Isn't it inherent that any musical instrument will be affected by temperature change?

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 2 Dec 2011 8:30 am

I agree with Brint. I for one can't tell violins apart, and most acoustic guitars are very similar. Electric guitars differ in shape, but that's not very practical for pedal steels. The tried and true designs are among the best, with quality of workmanship making all the difference. There's nothing wrong with standing on the shoulders of those who came before.

And ditto on the temperature issue. Does anyone expect any real musical instrument to stay in tune over radical temperature changes? If I take my marimba outside on a hot day, it won't be A=442 anymore. In the cold garage in winter, the resonators tubes are actually out of tune with the keys!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 2 Dec 2011 10:16 am

I entered a music store in Albany, N.Y. back in 1985. Two identical vintage MARTIN acoustic guitars were hanging side by side. There was no difference in their exterior appearances. I walked over and brushed the open strings on one and then the other. The differences in purity of tonality was like night and day. Need I say more?

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 2 Dec 2011 11:13 am

I wanted clarification as I found Bill's formulation on the subject of "steel guitar manufacturing" unclear. Thanks to Brint and B0b it's all much clearer to me now.

I'm a bit baffled by all the attention being given to temperature change here. Isn't it inherent that any musical instrument will be affected by temperature change?

That any musical instrument will be affected by temperature changes is a reasonable assumption. Accepting normal environmental factors to have excessive negative impact on the performance of any musical instrument, without asking questions and trying to find ways to minimize the problems, would baffle me.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 2 Dec 2011 11:24 am

Georg,

Some replicated musical instruments are lemons, much like automobiles that are not fitted or constructed properly. Recalls are all too common in the automobile industry. You could discover errors in other branches of munufacturing; even furniture that is sold for "seconds" if the imperfections are obvious to the average consumer. Mail orders are more apt to have unsatisfactory deliveries. You can't find two steel guitars that are exactly alike. That's the beauty of taking things upon oneself by building the homemade steel. It works for me. Waiting in the "wing" is the tuning agendum.