Have We Outgrown The E9th Chromatic Tuning?

[Richard Sinkler]

Brint Said:

C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G,can't decide between G# and Ab, A, Bb, B.

I see them all as Sharps except the Bb. I do see it as G# and D#, probably as a result of playing the E9th tuning and having it referred to there as a G# and D#. Now, I do look at the Bb/A# as a Bb though. Probably because I play (on piano)and sing a lot in F and the IV chord is a Bb.

Lane said:

And Richard, I'd agree with B0b. The F lever creates an E#°. To write out an F° in the key of E would the following signs: F would get naturalled, the A would get flatted (G# is a #9 to an F, F° requires Ab) and the C would get naturalled, THEN flatted (the B natural note being a #11 to an F, the third note in F° would get called Cb, because we build chords in thirds). Whereas the only special markings for E# would be E#.

That was the reason for my EDIT in the post above on this.

When I look at the individual notes on the tuning, I think only of the notes in relation to the E scale, as that is the name of the chord we opted to name the tuning after. I do not think of the D# as the 3rd of a B (except when actually thinking of the B chord using strings 1,2 and 5). I think of it as the 7th note of the E scale, which coincidently IS D#. Since I don't use the B to Bb lever on my guitar, I don't really think of whether it should be a Bb or an A#, but if I was to use my same scenario to where it stands in the scale of the chord the tuning is named for, I would call it a Bb as it is the b5 of the scale. You normally don't hear a chord with a #4 in it's name (although #11 is). Like an E7b5b9 as opposed to an E7#4b9 (or #8(#1)). But since Bb is not part of the E scale. I guess it could be called either.

[Georg Sørtun]

Since I kind of outgrew the E9 tuning decades ago, I might as well present my preferred tuning here...

[Lane Gray]

How can an "E9th" tuning be "in the key of E" when there is no E9th chord in the key of E?

Brint... You need to explain this to me. There is a 9th chord in EVERY key. Granted, the placement of the D string is below the lowest root in the tuning, but is still a flatted 7th note of the scale. The odd ball is actually the D# on string 2. That's a major (or real) 7th tone of the E scale and not a note in an E9th chord (1, 3, 5, b7, 9 or E, G#, B, D, F#)

Richard, consider the key signature of the key of E. It indicates D#. Hence there is no E9th chord (E-G#-B-D natural-F#) in the key of E.

Right. If you really wanted to get technical, if you're in E and hit a D in the chord in preparation for going to the IV, to be technically correct, you've entered Secondary Dominance, and that big fat E7 isn't the I chord, but is V of IV (written V/IV), just as the II major we play on the way to V is ACTUALLY V/V.
Now, to continue the topic drift, see the new thread over in the Music forum, where I gots a couple questions for folks more knowledgeable than I.

[Richard Sinkler]

Lane, what four M would that be?

[Lane Gray]

I couldn't remember the name. The "Music" forum

[Richard Sinkler]

Ahh. The mystery chord question. I've wondered about that chord myself.

[Brint Hannay]

b0b, you hit the nail on the head with your mention of context, but I take the concept from the opposite angle; I say there is no context dictated in the tuning. The tuning of the instrument isn't a piece of music, it's just a collection of bits, notes-in-themselves, like tiles available to be assembled as one wishes in a mosaic. To say "You have to call it D# because it's the 7th tone of an E major scale" is like saying "That tile has to be called a sky tile because it's blue." You can use a blue tile however you want.

That would be true if we tuned to equal temperament and ignored the fact that E and B are the only major chords represented in the tuning. But the true fact of the E9th is that the vast majority of players use JI or a non-equal temperament. Those tuning systems work by using the key of E as their basis. See my chart at http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html for example.

The E9th copedent is not a collection of equally-tempered notes in a vacuum, like a piano. Each fret favors specific keys. Have you ever tried to play in the key of C on open strings? If so, how did it sound?

No, I haven't. Since you refer to open strings, and since you say the only major chords represented in the tuning are E and B, that would imply that you mean to refer to the ten notes of the un-pedaled strings only. Not having any C, F, G, or A notes among the ten strings, I'd be hard pressed to play anything in C! Even if you really meant to include the raise and lower notes, as it happens the only way I can get a C without using the bar is to half-pedal the A pedal (none of my guitars have splits), so C would still be a tough key. I can use the half-pedal for the augmented or 7#5 chord, but they're more forgiving than trying to nail the root of a I chord.

I personally use 1/6th-comma meantone tuning, in which almost all the note relationships among 11 of the notes of the chromatic scale work out very well, with C being the lone "wolf" where it goes off the rails--but I get by without the C note in the tuning anyway.

[b0b]

Well, if not C, how about the key of Bb, the simplest key signature that actually includes an Eb note? I think that it's pretty hard to play in Bb on the open strings, and pretty easy at the 1st fret.

That's really my point. The E9th copedent has a very strong bias toward the keys of E, A and B on the open strings. It's not just a collection of unrelated notes - there's a "sharp keys" context. That's why calling the 2nd string D# is correct.

[Bill Hankey]

As General Douglas MacArthur once said when his army was routed out of the Pacific Island; "I'll be back!"
I feel the same on a smaller scale with the "ignorant issue" pointed out by b0b, and the reminder that I should enter a music study at a college by Mike P., I believe on Page #5. Both statements made by both gentlemen are basically true. In my own "defense" I will admit that my interests like many others are quite varied. I may have shown to be a bit careless by naming the 2nd string of the E9th tuning Eb, and opened the door to criticism. Normally, I would bank on administrative proficiency without question. Not quite so in technical issues, where it has been found that others before me have made the same "mistake". Where is LEON McAULIFFE when he is needed? I regret that he has been gone for some time, as well as his TEXAS PLAYBOYS BAND. He played that FENDER with four necks. He obviously had a bountiful supply of good ideas in musical terminology. He is known for his "STEEL GUITAR RAG", and the association with BOB WILLS. So many things can be examined in this quest for naming notes correctly in steel guitar language. I've learned many times that experts in one field
of study, are not always willing to start at the bottom, as they once did. I definitely need to catch up with the presenters of these fine notes here on this forum. There is a great need to be more knowledgeable in musical terminology. "I'll be back".

[Brint Hannay]

That's really my point. The E9th copedent has a very strong bias toward the keys of E, A and B on the open strings. It's not just a collection of unrelated notes - there's a "sharp keys" context. That's why calling the 2nd string D# is correct.

I've said previously that I'm not arguing against calling the 2nd string D#. I've been struggling to state my point--let me put it this way: I agree that, given the context, calling the 2nd string D# makes sense. The context strongly suggests calling it that. That's different from saying that calling it Eb is "wrong", i.e. contrary to the theory of music terminology. If we're not dealing with a specific piece of music, as long as we're accepting the concept that D# and Eb are enharmonic, the note is in fact also an Eb.

Whether the tuning method employed makes the D#/Eb note in or out of tune when used as a D# or an Eb, i.e. functionally enharmonic, is a different issue about what's the best tuning method.

This whole debate is a tangent from the issue of mixing sharps and flats in a scale run; it's not debatable that that is actually incorrect terminology.

[Bill Hankey]

Georg,

Thanks for sharing your tuning.. it appears to be very professional. I'll be scrutinizing the detailed outline very soon. I think of the sounds created by one of my favorite players from the past (Hal Rugg). His performance of "Down To My last Cigarette" is first class entertainment. There are a few moves in that recording that are hard to duplicate. I'd value a tabbed out instruction highly, if ever there was one made by the late Hal Rugg of that song.

[b0b]

Brint,

The only context in which the second string open is properly called an Eb is when other notes are played with the bar. Furthermore, even in that context it will probably sound out of tune. Compare it with your 4th fret Eb chord while a piano is sounding. You can play the Eb chord in tune with the piano at the 4th fret but if you add the 2nd string open it will sound flat.

In the context of specifying the tuning, D# is the only correct name for that string.

[David Mason]

"Outgrown the tuning?" We will ever even outlive this thread....

[Brint Hannay]

Won't accept the concept "D# is the best name for the string?" As distinct from "only correct"?
At this point, I'll have to agree to disagree.

Looking through various instructional materials I have from Buddy Emmons, Doug Jernigan, Jeff Newman, Herby Wallace, and Dewitt Scott, I find that, like Winnie Winston, none of them use D# consistently. Some use Eb for both the 2nd string and the E lowers, some use D# for the 2nd string and Eb for the lowers. Gosh, even the best of steel guitarists are musical ignoramuses.

BTW, with meantone tuning, Bb major on open strings sounds dreadful.

[Bill Hankey]

b0b,

Just for sake of conversation, it just seems to me that citing the Eb discrepancy is going beyond due limitations. What IF it was made known how often the bar placement of any given player is a shade sharp or flat from the intended position? Realistically, it happens to all players, with no exceptions. If you are chasing bugbears, the silly iotas linked to misplacing the bar ranks right up there with misquotes. That issue is just a primer for more serious problems; such as CABINET DROP; and the 3rd string dilemma as a legitimate reason to snipe at the E9th chromatic tuning.

[b0b]

I see no dilemma with the 3rd string. A few old-timers call it Ab (God only knows why), but almost everyone else calls it G#.

[Bill Hankey]

b0b,

Some of the changers built into newer models have been improved in recent years. I've read that the WILLIAMS STEEL has built-in features preventing the 3rd string from breaking early on. I've also read numerous accounts of breakages from sources far and wide. I believe the FENDER 1000 was notorious for snapping .011 strings tuned to G#. Please, someone tell me it isn't so. I like the FENDER"S tone, but not the cuts and bruises. As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel confident that you can place a lot of trust in the 3rd string of the E9th neck tuned to G# on most steel guitars. Different temperatures ranging from hot to cold magnify the problem by causing the player to bring hot strings up to pitch. When the strings cool a bit, they sharpen, often to the breaking point the first time they sustain a moment of trauma, they snap. My LUCKY 7 prevents
breakages by absorbing sudden pitch change trauma. My wife said that the 3rd string is wound too tight; just joking around... little did she realize, that's the answer in a nutshell.

[Lane Gray]

When my guitar gets cold, it FLATTENS.
As it warms, it drifts sharp. In single digits, by up to about 40 cents

[Bill Hankey]

Lane,

Anyone should be aware that heat lengthens the string causing it to go flat. You must consider that the body of the steel is affected by temperature change. To prove my point, borrow a hair dryer and wave it over your strings. With your tuner turned on, watch the strings go flat.. I mean really flat.

[Joseph Barcus]

A C chord is a Chord regardless of what tuning it comes off of may be brighter or lower range not much room for changing it lol sometimes the bass player can make it sound different for you but again if its C6th, E6th, E13th, B6th, its all the same structure 95% of the time

[Lane Gray]

The effect on the body, shrinking in the cold, apparently overwhelms the effect on the individual strings. Experience shows that my Zum at 14F is about 35¢ flat of room temperature.

[Bill Hankey]

Lane,

We know for sure that steel expands when it is subjected to heat. It will contract on cooling. Bridge builders are bedeviled by the action. Mechanics utilize the process while working on automobiles. Years ago, before automobiles were manufactured, the village smithy used the process in many situations. Steel wagon tires were heated for the purpose of expansion to fit tightly upon cooling.
In actuality, I've developed an exclusive method for removing nuts and bolts when they are rusted far beyond turning with ordinary wrenches. This business of detuning is merely elementary at best. If you maintain preciseness, with the distance between the two points of string attachments, the string will go flat when heated.

[Bill Hankey]

Joseph Barcus,

One of my favorite songs by CONWAY of course, is entitled, "FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. I was checking out videos and I saw your instructional video. Very interesting selection. I noticed that your wedding band appears to be too tight good friend. I'd be a bit concerned about circulation. Please elaborate further on the "C" issue, so that I might be able too add something to the concept.

[Lane Gray]

In which case, at least for my Zum, your if statement doesn't work.
Or perhaps it does. As the strings have air all around them, perhaps the strings warm up sooner/faster.
Possibly, at 14 (I remember that number, the jam was on a bitterly cold night) the steel and strings cool together and in time. Then, after I've assembled the guitar and as I run the cables and get situated, the strings reach room temp first. So when I hook up the tuner, I find them flat and them they return to pitch as the guitar warms and slightly expands. I can offer no explanation for the phenomenon, but I have observed it as a regular and predictable behavior. I do not care that such behavior is impossible. I submit that allegation of impossibility derive from inadequate understanding.

[Bill Hankey]

Lane,

I came to the conclusion that the one and only Jerry Byrd was fond of the lap steel for special reasons. I've surmised that he wouldn't move on to pedals for a variety of reasons. The extremes of detunings experienced by pedal pushers and the "sand castle" tuning of the E9th neck most likely were taken into account by the maesto in the early stages of its development. Before he could reconsider, he moved to Hawaii where straight steel is commonly used.