Have We Outgrown The E9th Chromatic Tuning?

[Richard Sinkler]

But the CORRECT definition of a 9th chord is 1-3-5-b7- 9 or E-G#-B-D-F#. The chord you spelled out is an Emajor 9th (or E7th add 9 if there is such a chord) if I'm not mistaken because of the MAJOR 7th tone.

[Brint Hannay]

Take another look--I said "D natural."

[Bill Hankey]

Brint,

For what it's worth, lowering the 2nd string one half tone will give you a full ninth across the board. Dissonance otherwise...

[Dana Blodgett]

Am I ignorant to assume that the E9th tuning is a "chromatic" tuning? I view the F# to be a 2nd and also a 9th an octave higher in the key of E.

[Richard Sinkler]

Take another look--I said "D natural."

Define D natural for me.

Looking at the actual key signature is just defining the notes in the key's scale, not chords. True the D# is the 7th note or position in the SCALE. That does not define the 9th chord which , believe it or not, has the following definition 1-3-5-b7-9. Look in any book on theory and scale and chord construction. Using your logic, there is no Em, E7th, Edim, Eaug, dare I continue??? Reading sheet music, the altered chords are made by sticking a # or b next to the note written on the scale notes line.

EDIT: Although on sheet music, since there is a sharp symbol on the line that signifies a "D" note in the key signature, then I would expect to see a "natural" symbol next to the note to give me the flatted 7th, or NATURAL D.

[Richard Sinkler]

chromatic" tuning

Actually, by definition, it is NOT chromatic.

[Brint Hannay]

Richard, I'm talking about naming the notes of the tuning, not musical structure.

By strict definition, for music to be truly "in the key of E", it needs to contain only notes of the E major scale. Obviously, in actual practice music outside of nursery rhymes seldom (really never) sticks to that limitation. In a piece generally in E, an E7th (or 9th) chord requires that an accidental (as you said, a "natural" symbol) be written next to the note on the D line (or space). If one is going to say that it nevertheless is "in the key of E," the same would have to apply to any and every chord.

It's key-signature-think in the first place that makes people insist that sharps must be used instead of flats in naming the notes of the tuning.

I'm not arguing that using sharps for consistency isn't a sensible approach. Just saying that justifying it by some argument that it is "correct" and anything else is wrong overstates the case and makes unwarranted assumption about other people's "ignorance."

But I will bow out here, with apologies for egregious topic drift.

[Dana Blodgett]

Richard I'd be interested to see your definition of a "chromatic scale".
On my Sho-Bud I can reach 12 semitones or halfsteps using pedals and knee levers to achieve this. Also I've been buying strings for E9 chromatic since the mid seventies. Sho-Bud also refers to this tuning as "Chromatic" in their pedal steel guitar course.

[Richard Sinkler]

Dana, the tuning itself in the open position with no pedals is not truly chromatic. Chromatic implies all notes are present. If we called the tuning chromatic because of the availability of ALL notes, couldn't we also call it a D chromatic tuning, or a B chromatic tuning just because all the notes are available with pedals? Jeff Newman is the one I remember pointing this out. I can also get every note using pedals, but I believe the tuning was called chromatic back in the days that there was just the three pedals and one lever that lowered the 2nd string to D and the 8th string to D#. There was no way at that time to get every note without moving your bar.

[b0b]

To clarify: We consider the E9th tuning to be in "the key of E" as indicated by its name. An E9th chord does indeed have a D note in it. The mode of the lower strings is mixolydian, hence the flatted 7th tone D instead of D#. The higher strings use the ionian mode.

The use of "Eb" is erroneous in either context, E ionian (major) or E mixolydian (dominant 7th). Winnie Winston was an authority on many things, but the charts in his book simply use the wrong name for that note. Sorry.

The name of the copedent is historical - it evolved from 8-string guitars tuned to an E9th chord. The same is true of the modern C6th. Both copedents have full chromatic capabilities. For clarity we should express the tuning notes relative to the key indicated by the tuning name. There is no Eb in the key of E, in any mode.

This is especially important when you add our non-equal temperaments and just intonation into the mix. In a non-equal tuning system, D# and Eb are slightly different pitches. D# is lower than Eb. Almost all of us actually tune the D# note below the ET reference D#/Eb pitch. Again, D# is the correct name for the note that we tune.

And as Lane pointed out, the F lever is really E#. We can fight that battle 20 years from now, after we've won the D#.

[Richard Sinkler]

By strict definition, for music to be truly "in the key of E", it needs to contain only notes of the E major scale. Obviously, in actual practice music outside of nursery rhymes seldom (really never) sticks to that limitation. In a piece generally in E, an E7th (or 9th) chord requires that an accidental (as you said, a "natural" symbol) be written next to the note on the D line (or space). If one is going to say that it nevertheless is "in the key of E," the same would have to apply to any and every chord.

It's key-signature-think in the first place that makes people insist that sharps must be used instead of flats in naming the notes of the tuning.

Point well taken. I wasn't thinking in terms of typical (or un-typical) chord progressions. I was thinking in terms of types of chords by chord definition.

Following the formula I described earlier when constructing a scale, will give the sharps or flats as they should be noted in the Key Signature, remembering that no two notes in a scale can have the same letter designation.

B0B said:

To clarify: We consider the E9th tuning to be in "the key of E" as indicated by its name.

That's probably where the confusion sets in. It shouldn't be considered in "the key of E" but rather just tuned to an E9th chord (with that danged major 7th thrown in to confuse everyone).

[Dana Blodgett]

Richard and Bob, Thanks for clearing that up, I guess I have to agree with the facts. Nothin' wrong with movin' the bar, wish I was better at it though. I'm not too worried about topic drift here either. A couple more thoughts;I've always thought when writing music to think in terms of a #(sharp) assending the scale and a b(flat)as descending not as a rule but as a general rule of thumb and that a D#(sharp) is the enharmonic equivalent of a Eb(flat).

[Richard Sinkler]

I haven't actively read music since the 6th grade, but even descending, the notes would still be listed on the staff as (in the key of E for example) sharps as opposed to flats.

[Richard Sinkler]

And as Lane pointed out, the F lever is really E#. We can fight that battle 20 years from now, after we've won the D#

I see that logic in relation to it being used with the A pedal with C# being the root. There is no F in a C# scale. But what if we are using that F to make an Fdim. Is it technically an E#diminished (assuming we are playing in the key of E)? And in E, it is also the flat 9. So, I would think that in the context of the open tuning, F is the correct designation, as we don't say the tuning is a C# something or other.

EDIT: Of course now that I think of it, I don't really remember using an Fdim in the key of E.

[Dana Blodgett]

Richard, So you kind of firm up the positon of,if it's written in #'s stay with #'s no matter if you asscend or descend.
I know pro guitarists who stay within those guidelines. They do not mix #'s and b's together when writing music.

[Richard Sinkler]

I have never seen sheet music written where there are sharps in the key signature and flats for those same scale tones when descending. I am no expert on reading music, so someone else may have a better explanation and confirm that descending scales should or should not use flats. I would think that for ease in reading, the same designations would be used throughout the music score.

[b0b]

I think that any nomenclature based on whether a melody is ascending or descending is wrong. The context is the key and the chord, not the direction of the melody.

Example: In the key of C you might go to a VI7 chord which requires an accidental. The VI of C is A, and an A7 chord has a C# note in it, not a Db. This is true whether the melody is descending G F E D C# or ascending G A B C#.

[Dana Blodgett]

Bob, thanks I'm just trying to clear up somethings as I got caught up in another thread months ago in a beef over an A# versus a Bb with another B.H.

[b0b]

Bob, thanks I'm just trying to clear up somethings as I got caught up in another thread months ago in a beef over an A# versus a Bb with another B.H.

In the context of the E9th copedent, I think that A# is correct. The II7 chord is the most common place where the note is used. That would be an F#7 chord in the key of E: F# A# C# E.

The note is also often used as a major 7th against the B root position: B D# F# A#. By now you should be getting the idea that context is the most important thing in deciding whether to use a sharp or a flat. On the C6th copedent, the enharmonic note is called Bb because the most common context is the I7 chord.

[Brint Hannay]

Thought experiment: Look at, or imagine, a piano keyboard. Starting from middle C, name all the notes, ascending chromatically. Don't picture playing any particular music, just name the notes of the piano keys themselves.

I know that when I do that, I think:
C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G,can't decide between G# and Ab, A, Bb, B.
I wonder how many others would do the same?

I understand all the theory behind the correct notation for each key, and if I were to write out music in a given key, I would follow the theoretical rules, but those are my default names for the notes considered in a vacuum.

b0b, you hit the nail on the head with your mention of context, but I take the concept from the opposite angle; I say there is no context dictated in the tuning. The tuning of the instrument isn't a piece of music, it's just a collection of bits, notes-in-themselves, like tiles available to be assembled as one wishes in a mosaic. To say "You have to call it D# because it's the 7th tone of an E major scale" is like saying "That tile has to be called a sky tile because it's blue." You can use a blue tile however you want.

[b0b]

b0b, you hit the nail on the head with your mention of context, but I take the concept from the opposite angle; I say there is no context dictated in the tuning. The tuning of the instrument isn't a piece of music, it's just a collection of bits, notes-in-themselves, like tiles available to be assembled as one wishes in a mosaic. To say "You have to call it D# because it's the 7th tone of an E major scale" is like saying "That tile has to be called a sky tile because it's blue." You can use a blue tile however you want.

That would be true if we tuned to equal temperament and ignored the fact that E and B are the only major chords represented in the tuning. But the true fact of the E9th is that the vast majority of players use JI or a non-equal temperament. Those tuning systems work by using the key of E as their basis. See my chart at http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html for example.

The E9th copedent is not a collection of equally-tempered notes in a vacuum, like a piano. Each fret favors specific keys. Have you ever tried to play in the key of C on open strings? If so, how did it sound?

[Bill Hankey]

Guys and gals,

It's becoming very evident that b0b is very comfortable discussing written music. I will never be able to gather enough knowledge in musical terminology at this stage of the game to justify myself taking a stand by trying to prove a point by contesting popular consensuses. From the Winnie Winston printed literature and others, I have gleaned enough information to proceed in further studies of the steel guitar. I would only say that it would be interesting to hear Winnie's version of sharps and flats in relation to the E9th tuning.

[Bill Hankey]

It is possible to hold your own when the competition gets tough, the tough can get going. What I mean is this; no particular tuning is stable, for mechanical reasons. At one point in time, I tried to play C6 material by installing a quick tuning change lever. It simplified playing songs commonly played on that tuning. I would imagine that a variety of quick-change tunings could be made possible by installing the proper devices. What then brown cow? Where would the emphasis on sharps and flats be at that juncture?
There wouldn't be time to ascertain a picayune discernment in the midst of entertainment. My friend "Howie" taught me to play "Bye Bye Blackbird" in the key of Eb. After these lectures, I'm wondering if the correct naming and proper key for that tune are adequate for steel guitar aficionados?

[Lane Gray]

b0b,

I'm curious to know the note terminology used for the second string of the E9th chromatic tuning. How many players refer to the second string as D#? Is it commonly adhered to in every situation? I once played with a keyboard player who played every song in the key of F#. Small wonder that I'm sharp shy.

I call it D#. Because that's III in a B chord.
For that matter, because it's the third of F#, I call the note obtained by my B string lower A#, as that's the customary us.age (Bb being a flatted fourth to F# rather than a major third).

Brint, I would disagree on the lack of context, at least on the front neck. The sumbitch (a little Texas lingo) is tuned to an E9, E having four sharps. We're pretty well into the sharps territory (not surprising, since we evolved from the guitar, the steel ain't a horn). This pretty much makes a flatted anything slightly confusing. Any music meant for guitar will carry a bias towards sharps over flats simply by dint of the guitar having a sharpophilic/flatophobic tuning.

The C6 neck, OTOH, is more neutral. P6 creates an F and an Eb, being the dominant 7 to the F; while P5 makes F#s, them being 3 to the D. My half-step drop of 4 gets called BOTH, because sometimes I use it as a #5, sometimes as a b6.

And Richard, I'd agree with B0b. The F lever creates an E#°. To write out an F° in the key of E would the following signs: F would get naturalled, the A would get flatted (G# is a #9 to an F, F° requires Ab) and the C would get naturalled, THEN flatted (the B natural note being a #11 to an F, the third note in F° would get called Cb, because we build chords in thirds). Whereas the only special markings for E# would be E#.

[Lane Gray]

It is possible to hold your own when the competition gets tough, the tough can get going. What I mean is this; no particular tuning is stable, for mechanical reasons. At one point in time, I tried to play C6 material by installing a quick tuning change lever. It simplified playing songs commonly played on that tuning. I would imagine that a variety of quick-change tunings could be made possible by installing the proper devices. What then brown cow? Where would the emphasis on sharps and flats be at that juncture?
There wouldn't be time to ascertain a picayune discernment in the midst of entertainment.

If you're "in the midst of entertainment," the key of the song of the moment determines the label. But if you're playing with guitarists in keys they like, about the only flat is B (as in the dom7 in a C7 chord, and the IV chord in F).