using minors int nashville number system

[Ben Godard]

I have a question. I am making chords for John Anderson's seminole wind. I always condider the song to be in the key of Em. That would mean that Em is 1m
However, this defies the logic of the number system it seems.

Em is the relative minor of G I think. So actually you really working out of a G scale. That would make Em be 6m

For example the song intro is Em G D Am. Going by the number system of the G scale, then the number chart would be 6m 1 5 2m

Is this correct. How do they do it in Nashville.

[Robert Murphy]

Em is the 1, F#dim is the 2, Gmajor is the 3, Am is the 4, Bm is the 5, Cmajor is the 6, Dmajor is the 7. So if you start counting from the relative G then it resembles what you already know. G Am Bm C D Em F#dim.

[Ben Godard]

I'm confused!

[Ben Godard]

Franklin


Posted 22 Sep 11 7:28am

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Charting using the NNS......All numbers are major chords unless notated different, no exceptions.........

If the song is in E minor, most chart riders will use G major as the tonal center for the chart......Making the root chord a 6 minor......

Paul

this makes more sense to me. you don't have to change thinking patterns.

Ben

[Roger Rettig]

I'm with Ben - surely we have to call the Em (in G, anyway) a 6m - otherwise there'd be no rigid standard. The A minor would be '2m', and so on.

[Marc Friedland]

Hi Ben –

Seminole Wind is one of the few songs I sing – and if I’m playing with a band I don’t normally play with and I’m asked to sing a song, this is often the one I choose.
For those in the band needing to know what the chords are – I simply tell them Em G D A. It’s a lot easier and “safer” than relying on that they’ll all know what I’m talking about if I tell them a set of numbers. It uses the same chords for the Verse & Chorus, and there’s no Bridge – so that makes it rather easy.

And yes – I play the progression with an “A” not Am
I’m sure you can use Am if you like that better, but although I haven’t heard the original in a while, my memory tells me “A” is the chord used in John Anderson’s version and that’s the chord the harmonies are based around in the Chorus.
It’s possible I may be mistaken – so I’ll make a point to listen to it again when I get the opportunity.

Thanks,
Marc

www.PedalSteelGuitarMusic.com

BTW
Without giving it too much thought I would probably write it out as 2415 in the key of D, though I could certainly understand if someone sees/hears it differently.
Key of 2 Sharps (D)
2 Em
4 G
1 D
5 A

[Ben Godard]

The way I see it is that the song is the key of Eminor. We can all agree on that. Well Em is the same exact scale as the G scale, only that it start with E and ends on E. (this is actually E Aeolian mode)

Anyway, being that it were using the G scale. Then G is 1.

So a progression of Em G D Am would be 6m 1 5 2m

This seems to be the most logically correct to me but maybe I'm wrong. Any nashville pros out there?

[Scott Shipley]

Having used the Nashville Number System in Nashville for many years, and having actually charted the song in question, the song is obviously in Em. But the chart would be written with G as the 1. The Chorus would read thusly:

6`6`11 5522 6`6`11 5522
6`6`11 5522 6`6`11 5522

The chord at the end of the chorus is a 2 major, not a minor.

[Ben Godard]

I hope someone can totally clear this up for us all. Seems this subject has been the source of confusion on quite a few threads.

and this is only the basics. It get tougher when you get into chords with alternate base notes, and then there's polychords and added ninths and other stuff I don't know about

[Ben Godard]

I agree with that Scott. That basically my thought process

[Scott Shipley]

In regards to polychords and 9ths, those are basically left to the players discretion. Unless it's a specific change that affects the entire band, the numbers are usually kept pretty basic. Otherwise it would defeat the whole purpose of using numbers. Hey, it's the one time steelers are given carte blanche, take advantage of it!

You have to remember that the NNS was not invented by musicians, it was invented by vocalists. A quartet specifically, as a way to simplify things in the studio. Not to paint a panorama, just to have a starting point. If a string section or other
complicated parts are involved, there are usually string lines or scores written by the producer or session leader. The KISS rule applies here.

[Ben Godard]

In a nutshell, it looks like the number system is rooted to the Major scale. Not a minor scale. Although it is based off the Major scale, the 7th note is usually flatted, thus giving us our 7th chords. (I think once upon a time they even called 7th chords flatted 7th chords written as D(-7) versus the standard D7 of today.)

Ben

[Scott Shipley]

Flat 7 is not the same as a Major 7th. In NNS speak, a flat 7 would be notated as 7b, and a seventh chord as a 17.
The system itself is not about scales, it's really only about the chords.

[Clete Ritta]

Charting using the NNS......All numbers are major chords unless notated different, no exceptions...

...a progression of Em G D Am would be 6m 1 5 2m...

I think you got it, and if you use A instead of Am it would be 6m 1 5 2.

Clete

[Mark van Allen]

Ben, hoping to help with uncertainty re: seventh chords...
The number system is based around the harmonized major scale, using thirds harmony or every other note in the scale. You can figure it out once, and the pattern will be the same for any key.
In G: G A B C D E F# G You can build a three or four note chord from each note in the scale as:
G,B,D = G Major G,B,D,F# = G Major 7
A,C,E = A minor A,C,E, G = A minor 7
B,D,F# = B minor B,D,F#,A = B minor 7
C,E,G = C Major C,E,G,B = C Major 7
D,F#,A = D Major D,F#,A,C = D Dominant 7
E,G,B = E minor E,G,B,D = E minor 7
F#,A,C = F# minor flat 5 F#,A,C,E = F# minor 7 flat 5

As you can see, all these chords use only notes from the G major scale. Works the same for every major scale, and the harmonized major scale always yields
1M 2m 3m 4M 5M 6m 7mb5 or 1M7 2m7 3m7 4M7 57 6m7 7m7b5. The five chord is the only "naturally occurring" dominant seventh in the harmonized major scale. Among other things, this is why you can use the G major scale to improvise over songs containing any/all of these chords ("Country Roads", "Friend of the Devil"). or why you can play a D7 on the 5 chord, whether the rest of the band does or not.

Confusion can exist because many songs or progressions use harmony based on other than the major scale. For instance, some songs (like "Sweet Home Alabama" or "Can't You See" use the harmonized mixolydian scale, where the lowering of the 7th major scale tone a half step results in a flat seven major chord instead of a minor7b5 on the seventh degree. (And progressions of 1-b7-4)

I agree that most NNS users would chart "Seminole Wind" in G as 6m-1-5-2M, although visual logic would make it appear to be in D, I'd argue for a tonic home base in G (Em).

[Scott Shipley]

Except for the fact that it's not consistently an A minor. Throughout the verses, and at least once in every chorus, it's an A major.

Just my opinion, but it seems like we're overthinking a very simple system. It's just chords, not scales.
KISS.

[Ben Godard]

Mark van Allen

I agree that most NNS users would chart "Seminole Wind" in G as 6m-1-5-2M, although visual logic would make it appear to be in D, I'd argue for a tonic home base in G (Em).

This is the answer I was looking for. Thank you very much.

Thanks to everyone who helped discuss this.

[Mark van Allen]

Scott, I was using the convention of capital letters representing Major, lower case minor, and I remembered the A's being major, for a 2M in this instance.

And while not exactly on track for this thread, I see and teach the usage of the NNS as an integrated system of hearing, understanding, mentally filing, and exploring both the music we hear or play and our instruments themselves. To me it's a "unified field theory" that encompasses much more than just chord progressions- and the shortcut most are looking for to really jump start understanding and performance.

[Ben Godard]

Here's Your man by Josh Turner I just did.


Intro:
kickoff
4 4 1 1
5 5 1 1

Verse1:
4 4 1 1
5 5 1
4 4 1 1
5 5 1 1

Chorus1:
2m 2m 1 1
2m 3m 4 5

Verse2:
4 4 1 1
5 5 1
4 4 1 1
5 5 1

Instrumental:
4 4 1 1
5 5 1 1

Chorus2:
2m 2m 1 1
2m 3m 4 5

Verse 3:
4 4 1 1
5 5 1
4 4 1 1
5 5 1 1

Last phrase:
5 5 1

Ending:
4 4 1 1
5 5 1 1

[Bryan Daste]

I agree with Mark...the NNS has helped me think more musically in general. Once you can recognize the patterns, things become easier! The book Nashville Number System by Chas Williams is an excellent resource on the subject, and its accompanying CD is great too! Highly recommended...find it at http://nashvillenumbersystem.com/