Is There Enough Market For New Steel Companies?

Larry Waisner · Post by **Larry Waisner** » 8 Sep 2011 2:34 am

Per Berner wrote:Bearings are intended for quickly rotating elements. For pedal steel applications, with very limited and slow movements, bushings actually do a better job at a much lower cost. Complication and expense doesn't always mean improvement!

You better check again there on the applications for sealed bearings. Ther are PSG companies using sealed bearings today and they produce a far better longer lasting product.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Sep 2011 2:39 am

Per Berner wrote:
By the way, I find this to be just the opposite:

"You cannot walk in to any Guitar Center and TRADE the PSG and get back anything close to it's real value. You can do that with a guitar any day of the week, any hour of the day. "

Which was my quote but a lot was left out... The meaning was and still is, you can bring a lower cost Instrument to GC and trade it any day of the week, sure you maybe only get back $500 of your $1000 initial investment which now has a street value of maybe $700 or $750.

NOW..PSG owners are not going to bring a $5000 Instrument to GC or anywhere for that matter and let it go for $2000 or $2500...Street value is still in the $3500/$4000 plus or minus range...Relative value matters...

50% of 1000 is $500, 50% of $5000 is $2500

That was the meaning of the statement...

Tyler Hall · Post by **Tyler Hall** » 8 Sep 2011 2:45 am

The "complications" on my G2 make it play better than any guitar I've ever played with bushings. I also don't want a guitar that was built in a day. I'd rather sit on a waiting list and know that a builder is taking his time. That's just my opinion. Everybody has one.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Sep 2011 2:57 am

Tyler Hall wrote: I also don't want a guitar that was built in a day. I'd rather sit on a waiting list and know that a builder is taking his time.

Tyler with all due respect, and you referring to my comment with regard to Carter, building a guitar in one day is POSSIBLE because all the parts are there and ready to go..inventory is full and stocked, the builder is not waiting on parts being made a few at a time... It doesn't take a year to assemble a PSG but it may take 6 months of waiting if you are ordering machined parts a few at a time or making them one at a time for each Instrument.

A builder or manufacturer who has an approx 1 year delivery ( even more ) is because they do not have an inventory of parts available or enough manpower to build more than one PSG at a time. If they are ordering small qty's of parts from a machine shop that could take months and the cost /part will be astronomical for the small qty as well.

Clarification before someone jumps down my throat, this does not mean that waiting a year is not going to yield a fine instrument, it will.But it has nothing to do with assembly time once all the components are ready and available. You can't even begin to assemble the final product until all the parts are in front of you. Manufacturing individual components and final product assembly are two totally different entities. In business the lack of components for a final assy is called a BACK ORDER and it causes huge stress on the accountants and assembly lines.

Building a PSG guitar in 1 day or 2 days , or even a week...it is still ASSEMBLY labor , you can spend 40 hours assembly time in 5 days or 6 months , it's still 40 hours. But if you do not have the inventory of parts in front of you, you ain't building nothing.

Inventory of components and available hours to work is what allows a PSG to be assembled in a day or two, not someone taking there time with a screwdriver for 6 months. This has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the final build.

Larry Waisner · Post by **Larry Waisner** » 8 Sep 2011 3:05 am

I agree 100% with you Tony. I remanufacture older PSG parts for people end plates, changer parts, bell cranks and so on. They want three of this and one of those. The first question I have is do you rebuild these guitars alot? If so it is cheaper to order twenty five, fifty or a hundred. and they do not see the advantage of a small inventory verses a small special order. It makes more money for me but I would rather help them out financially also.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Sep 2011 3:27 am

Larry yes, agree.

Being in manufacturing and running our own very small business allows me to make these comments. One product I make for our business, lamps, if I have all the parts and I am ready to go with NO interruptions, I can assemble in 20 minutes. Hand made very high quality. This does not include the up front preparation and labor for other components required for final assembly. The 20 minute build is based on the "complete kit" in front of me.

But, if I don't have the parts, I am talking ordering, res-stocking inventory and the wait for electrical parts to arrive and for me to manufacture custom wood bases,that 20 minute build can and will take 4 weeks. I generally order enough parts to build 30 to 40 Lamps, before even ONE is ordered. I also do not make the custom wood base one at a time for each order, I knock out as many as 60 or 70 at a time and they are finished and waiting. This is called inventory investment also known as risk.

That's what I am talking about here..

When parts are available I can knock out 15 or 20 orders in one day, without parts I can't do anything but wait, and guess who else is waiting...

My reference to Carter is still the same, they had an inventory of quality parts ready to go, an up front inventory investment was made ahead of orders.

And remember, I am not saying a year wait is bad thing , if someone is willing to accept a year wait , that's fine by me, but it has nothing to do with assembly time, the time it actually takes to put the Instrument together from available parts. At the end of the year you are getting a fine Instrument I'm sure. And I guarantee that the Master builder is not taking his time with a screwdriver in his hand for a year.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 8 Sep 2011 7:49 am

Well, I think the "labor of love" thing would explain why so many of these - and good ones, too - are made by a guy in his garage (more or less). If you're running a "corporation" you have to pay your workers, their insurance, your secretarial staff (who probably give bumfrick about steel guitars, they're there for the cowboys) you have to pay taxes on your manufacturing plant (insurance too), and you're not doing all that because you like to build things in the garage but EVEN MORE OF 'EM - you're doing it because you want to get rich.

Do you really think the entry-level sanders and paint-machine operators at Fender, Gibson, PRS are really all dedicated, hard-working luthier-apprentices who would love nothing more that to know they've made you a great guitar? And they go home with a smile on their face every day, knowing the satisfact... crap, have you ever, ever worked in a factory? (don't).

Leo Fender's business model from day one was to pump 'em out as cheap as possible, they just hadn't yet invented little potmetal molds so he had to use steel. The recent deification of Fander's "legendary" pickup winder Abigail Ybarra is something I'm sure she, and others, find pretty hilarious - is there anything the marketing department won't stoop to (no).

(Bring your shovel & waders)->
http://www.seymourduncan.com/abigail/
(pretty weird & creepy, huh?)

The fundamental word here is GREED - some people were just born with more of it, and it can be an overpowering, life-changing thing. Other people like to make nice stuff in their garage. Accepting as fundamental truth the idea that you deserve to make so much money sitting on your butt all day thinking about how to make more money by pretending to care, so you can afford to go to a gym because you sit on your butt all day - well, I missed that class in high school I guess. Thank nads fer that. Support your local luthier....

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 9 Sep 2011 9:29 am

The problem is: a $5000 PSG should be $6000 or more.
I don’t know of any popular brands of PSGs that went out of business due to lack of customer orders. So it really has little to do with “supply and demand”.
They usually fail from ill health, death. or the ever popular mismanagement.
And at the top of the list in mismanagement is simply they don’t charge enough for their product to sustain their business though crisis.
An extra $1000 per instrument would solve most problems and cut down on the waiting time accordingly.
If it’s something you really want I don’t think $6000 as apposed to $5000 is going to keep you from whipping out that credit card.

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 9 Sep 2011 9:33 am

if I were to spend 5000 or 6000 on a guitar I would not wait for it. my wife gets mad at me because i will not sit on a bench in a restaurant waiting on a seat. for what they charge they should be able to handle what comes at them or lower their price. so again same goes for guitar I will never pay that kind of money for one and be told I have to wait on it

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 9 Sep 2011 10:11 am

Joseph Barcus wrote:my wife gets mad at me because i will not sit on a bench in a restaurant waiting on a seat. for what they charge they should be able to handle what comes at them or lower their price.

Actually, they should increase their prices. Then you wouldn't have to wait on the bench for a seat and you could get a table right away!

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 9 Sep 2011 10:35 am

yeah youre right Jim I thought of that after I posted but said what the heck maybe someone wont catch that lol yeah right

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Sep 2011 10:52 am

Jim Cohen wrote:Then you wouldn't have to wait on the bench for a seat and you could get a table right away!

or eat on the bench

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 9 Sep 2011 10:53 am

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 9 Sep 2011 11:01 am

sometimes im sure the bench would taste better than what comes out of those places lol. thank god for fast food places for people like me. or in my case lots of road kill daily, I just cant find a family member that wants to sit in a tree and go "car" "car" every time one comes by so I wont get hit eating

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Sep 2011 11:03 am

Jim Cohen wrote:Then you wouldn't have to wait on the bench for a seat and you could get a table right away!

or eat on the bench

PS, I also have two premium Fender Telecasters for sale, $1500 each, but I'll sell them for $2000 each..
No waiting...I'll ship right away

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 9 Sep 2011 11:04 am

see how good that works Jim lol

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 9 Sep 2011 11:48 am

If you eat at McDonald's You're to cheap to pay $6 when you've been paying $5. But if I'm used to and like eating at my favorite restaurant with a friend and I have to pay $60 instead o $50 so the restaurant can stay open then I don't mind.
You folks that wish they made steel guitars in China so you could walk in the store pickup 2 of them dirt cheap anytime you wanted won't understand the logic of what Bo is referring to.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Sep 2011 12:27 pm

Stuart Legg wrote: You folks that wish they made steel guitars in China so you could walk in the store pickup 2 of them dirt cheap anytime you wanted won't understand the logic of what Bo is referring to.

But it's only speculation..

If builder A gets no orders at $5000 he will not be in business to capture the $6000 orders..the trick in business is to make the same $5000 item for $4500 and still turn a profit , not count on the $6000 sale to make the profit. Businesses need low, mid and hi priced items to survive, if they only go with ONE they will not make it, they are counting on ONE audience. You want to attract as many customers as humanly possible. This whole thing about waiting for a high quality item is bogus, it doesn't take a year to build the high quality item, it may take 10 months to start working on the order but not 12 months to build it. 10 months is waiting for them to start.

Just like the table above, the table is not available for PATRON A to sit at, it's the same table, same cook, same staff etc... but he has to wait on the bench until they a ready to serve him. He's not waiting for them to build or add an additional table. It's still only going to take 45 min for him to order , get his food and eat it, even if he has to wait 3 hours to get to the table.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 9 Sep 2011 12:31 pm

Um... if y'all wouldn't mind keeping me out of all this, I'd appreciate it!

It wasn't I who was deciding whether to wait for a table...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 9 Sep 2011 12:32 pm

correction noted....edit complete

ps

Our favorite restaurant in Charlotte was a place called Chelsey's Place, very expensive, you could always get a table..excellent food, very pricey...dinner for two @ around $100

Then one day you could REALLY get a table, actually 2 or 3..

then one day you couldn't get a table.

There were no tables, they were not selling food anymore, they were selling postage and boxes.... this was well before the economy took a dump..

Stuart Legg · Post by **Stuart Legg** » 9 Sep 2011 1:39 pm

Jim I edited my post. I wrote it originally in haste and I didn't notice that it implied that you were cheap. We all know that you are generous, a great tipper, snappy dresser and all around good guy.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 9 Sep 2011 2:04 pm

Thank you, gentlemen.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 9 Sep 2011 2:13 pm

Tony Prior wrote: If builder A gets no orders at $5000 he will not be in business to capture the $6000 orders..the trick in business is to make the same $5000 item for $4500 and still turn a profit.

If a PSG builder being price competitive is the only means of survival he's in trouble already.
It takes up to a year or more before you can get delivery on a $5000 PSG so I would say that there are plenty of buyers for them and I really don't think there would be a huge drop in orders if the price went to $6000.
We buy the name. We all basically look alike up on the stage with our name products with the same pick bags, specialty seats looking like we're sitting on a throne.
I notice that when Randolf was using a Carter psg he pasted and Fessenden sticker over the Carter.
Half the fun is showing up at your local PSG Association with a brand new $5000 PSG. Never mind how good you play it.
I'd rather play banjo through a Sho-Bud volume pedal than own a made in China PSG.

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 9 Sep 2011 2:51 pm

What is the ?

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 9 Sep 2011 3:58 pm

Bo Legg wrote:
Tony Prior wrote:
I'd rather play banjo through a Sho-Bud volume pedal than own a made in China PSG.
I don't believe there are any PSG's made in China