rkl,why lower no.6 string to f#. e9th tuning

Lee Dassow · Post by **Lee Dassow** » 26 Aug 2011 1:07 pm

hi everybody,
On my present BMI s-10(e9th tuning), I raise strings 1 and 7 from f# to g RKL, However I've seen where some tunings drop the no. 6 string g# to f#.
would someone please explain to me why you'ed do that when you have f# on string 7?. I've changed my steel to drop no.6 to f# and it certainly hasn't helped my playing. Oh yeh 3 pedals 5 knee levers.
lee

Alan Michael · Post by **Alan Michael** » 26 Aug 2011 1:50 pm

I'm a rookie but I use it when going from a IV or V chord back to a I chord with no pedals, lowering the string before striking the chord and then releasing the lever. I'd also like to hear what others use this lever for.

Carson Leighton · Post by **Carson Leighton** » 26 Aug 2011 2:11 pm

Lee, I think you will find a new world of music by lowering the 6th string..I felt the same way you do about 20 years ago,,but I wouldn't be without that change now...Just keep experimenting with it and you will see what I mean..If you can split the pitch of the string with a tunable split ,then all the better.....Cheers,,,Carson

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Aug 2011 4:15 pm

Adding a new change to your guitar will NOT make your playing any better. You have to learn how to apply it to something you will be playing before it will do anything for you at all. Understanding the musical sense of a change is really important to help you figure out how to use that change.

One way to think about the G# to F# change is as a reversed A pedal in the open key of B (bar not on strings)

In the key of E the A pedal raises the 5th tone to the 6th -- up a whole step

In the key of B the G# is the SIXTH tone; lowering to F# -- again a whole step -- gives the FIFTH

The equivalent inverse of the B pedal in the same key is the 1/2 tone lower of the E's on 4 and 8 to D#

I to IV chord examples
Open/no pedals = EMaj ===> Open/A+B = AMaj
Open/E to D# and G# to F# levers = BMaj ===> Open/no pedals = EMaj

IN STAGES
Play 10 8 6 with E to D# and G# to F# pressed (Chord is BMaj 1 3 5)
Let off E to D# to raise the 3rd to 4th (giving a Bsus4 chord open - 1 4 5)
Let off G# to F# lever to raise 5th to 6th tones, giving and EMaj (1 4 6 of the I chord = the IV chord)

That's just one way to think about the function of the G# to F# change. THERE ARE MANY MORE USES than a simple I to IV change. Like the A and B pedals, those two changes can be used interactively, holding one and engaging the other and lotsa other stuff. Buddy Emmons has had that change on his guitar as long as I can remember. It is a very useful change. Half pedal it or split it with the B pedal and you get G -- another useful chord and melody note to have at your disposal.

Bill Moran · Post by **Bill Moran** » 26 Aug 2011 5:50 pm

No wonder I never learned to play one of these things !!

Lee Dassow · Post by **Lee Dassow** » 26 Aug 2011 6:35 pm

Thanks for the info larry'
If i'ts okay for buddy emmons it's certainly okay for me. I still think you should have as many changes
on the steel guitar as possible. I,m even thinking about getting the fourth pedal for the franklin changes. that will give 19 changes on my BMI.S-10. I might not play any better, but I'll look good!
lee

Tommy Boswell · Post by **Tommy Boswell** » 27 Aug 2011 6:10 am

I just bought a new guitar that came configured that way. I thought it was a manufacturing defect!

With the info in this thread I can experiment with it now.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Aug 2011 10:34 am

It is my 3rd most used knee lever after the 2 that raise and lower the E's. Sure you have an F# on 7, but it is not necessarily the note, but how you get to it. I like having the major chord with the F# and D# (knee lever lower) 2 frets down from the same chord at the pedals down position. Tons (and I mean TONS) of great melody possibilities there. I too, couldn't live without it(well, maybe, but I don't want to).

Lee Dassow · Post by **Lee Dassow** » 27 Aug 2011 11:06 am

thank you richard,
yes it makes a lot of sense being able to drop that mid range note a whole tone, plus, like you said, even picking a scale up or down, you dont have to reach a string lower. I see that you said that your knee lever is getting you the f# on 6 and something on d# no. 2 string what note is that. Is it a D? I'm sure both those notes are on RKL.
lee

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 27 Aug 2011 11:09 am

Richard Sinkler wrote:...Sure you have an F# on 7, but it is not necessarily the note, but how you get to it.

This is the way I feel about the traditional Pedal 4 on C6. It provides note movement and string combinations not available on any other pedal/lever.

To get back to the original topic, I don't lower s.7 on E9 at all, though I do raise it to G on a lever. That works for what I play, but probably YMWV.

Carson Leighton · Post by **Carson Leighton** » 27 Aug 2011 3:57 pm

Larry is right,,all these changes won't make you a steel guitar player..You have to be a musician first..I started out with 3 pedals and no knee levers at all back in 1970...Being able to add changes to your steel is what makes it such a versatile instrument...I always look at my lowers as being a raise as well as a lower...It just depends on where you start...Same with the raises...Cheers,,,Carson

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 27 Aug 2011 8:04 pm

I've always referred to the E-lower position for major chords as the "2 below" position for whatever reason as it is 2 frets below the same chord with the A & B pedals down. Using the G#-F# lower on the 6th string makes it not necessary to even change grips when using 5,6, and 8 so one could, if he/she wanted to, play the ice cream change (1-6m-4-5) at the E-lower or "2 below" position w/o changing grips (utilizing the B-Bb lower for the 57). I have been tinkering with this instrument for 38 years now and am constantly amazed at how much new stuff that I just stumble on to- thanks in large part to all of you on the forum with your constant musings

.

Peter Freiberger · Post by **Peter Freiberger** » 27 Aug 2011 8:34 pm

I like raising the 7th string F# to G# with a half stop at G. I think one can get all or most of what you'd lower the 6th for plus more combinations than doing it all on the 6th. Works well on a P/P too. You don't have to leave any slack on the B pedal.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 27 Aug 2011 10:18 pm

Peter Freiberger wrote:I like raising the 7th string F# to G# with a half stop at G. I think one can get all or most of what you'd lower the 6th for

But you can't get it all without re-picking, by sliding and/or "bending" from positions using any of the grips using the 10-8-6-5-4 strings either open or with A, B, or A&B pedals and/or E lowers, as you can with the 6th string lower. That's the difference.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 27 Aug 2011 10:31 pm

I raise 1 a whole step, and have tried raising 7 as well, but prefer to lower 6 a whole step. On guitars with limited pedals and levers, it usually comes down to either raising 6 or lowering 7 either by half or whole (maybe with a feel stop if youre lucky).
I use the 6 lower lever (RKL) with E lowers (LKR) as an alternative V in much the same way that the open and AB pedals are used, but in reverse.

Clete

Alan Michael · Post by **Alan Michael** » 28 Aug 2011 8:44 am

I want to thank everyone for their input in this discussion. It has switched on the lightbulb for me.....especially the explanation of G# to F# in combination with E to D# being like the AB pedals in reverse. More, more.......

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 7 Nov 2011 9:17 am

I don't have the 6th string G# to F# change on my Kline (uni). I DO use the 8th (E lowered to D#) and 5th string (ala Jeff Newman) move a lot. After thinking about the obviously common 6th string lower,,,it looks like one could use it to give you a full 3 finger grip of the A and B pedals down position, 2 frets below, and pretty much replace the A with F lever change? Does this make sense? Is this a common use of this change?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Nov 2011 10:13 am

Sonny, while the two are the same, like someone else said upthread, the notes are less important than how you got there. Go ahead and use them interchangeably, and you'll see some uses "flow" easier on the mind or through the body easier one way or the other.

For those that have that ancient Buddy Emmons tab of 12 Ray Price shuffles, there's a cool use of it in (I believe) "Crazy Arms," which, although he uses it as an inverse A pedal, it's obviously not quite the same, because he just blatantly released the A pedal on the same fret two or three beats earlier. Since it wasn't a harmonized move, you can get by without the change with a quick slide of the bar down two frets. I chose to reconfigure my Marlen to play it like he wrote it.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 7 Nov 2011 10:19 am

It is not meant to replace the A+F lever change. It's a way to get another inversion of a chord in between the typical no pedal, A+B, and A+F combinations. Just one more tool in arsenal, so to speak. The extra movement on the 5 note of the chord (the F# as this chord with the 6th lower and E lower is a B in the open position) allows you to move from the 5 note up to the 6 and then to the flatted 7th without having to move the bar. That is my third most use for this lever after the chord itself (same chord -but not the same inversion- as the A+B chord but 2 frets down), and the ability to lower the 3rd of the E chord (open no pedals) the same as what releasing the A pedal from the A+B position, and lowering the 2nd string to C# in the B chord found on strings 1, 2 and 5 (again open) do. I will continue stating that if I could ONLY have 3 lever (and the 3 standard pedals), they would be the E raise and lower, and the 6th string to F#. I could actually live without the 2nd string lower (but it is a cool lever too - just not necessary for my style of playing).

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 7 Nov 2011 10:37 am

Richard Sinkler wrote: I could actually live without the 2nd string lower (but it is a cool lever too - just not necessary for my style of playing).

Spoken like a man who spends little time in minor chords.

For much of the blues I've played lately, this is my 2nd most used knee, ahead of everything but the D#

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 7 Nov 2011 10:41 am

Like Lane said, Buddy Emmons uses this change a lot. So does Hughey and many many other pro players you hear all the time. The lick I think Lane is talking about is one I use now and then. He states that you can slide the bar down which does work if you don't want 2 other strings to sustain while doing the licks, but with the lever, you can do it a lot quicker and have the other strings played sustain. It works good as a lick going from a pedals down 4 chord back to the 1. To get this same lick without it, you would have to slide like Lane mentioned or go back down 5 frets and use the A+B pedals and let off A to get the lick, something that is hard or impossible if playing in D (actually that would be the 4 chord and you would actually be playing in A) at fret 5 or below.

The lick (or most likely a variation of) in E going from a 4 chord (A) back to the 1 chord (E). (lever notated as the H lever):
[tab]
4___12~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5___12A ~~ 12 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
6______________12B ~~~~~12 ~~~ 12H~~~~~
7______________________________________
8____________________________________12
[/tab]

You can let strings 4 & 5 sustain through the whole lick or block the at the time you pick the 6th string with the pedal B down. Then there are many variations of this lick using strings 5,6 and 8, 6, 8 and 10, etc... Use your imagination. This also works in reverse (Starting with the string 8 note and just playing everything back to the beginning (squeezing the A pedal in for "feeling". Reverse would be in the key of A, though, and the lick would take you from the 5 chord (E) to the 1 chord (A).

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 7 Nov 2011 10:48 am

Lane,

Actually I spend a lot time in minor chords. As much as anyone. I really don't care for the minor when flatting string 2 a 1/2 tone (against the B chord on 1, 2 & 5) if that's the minor you are speaking of. Probably the tuning of it is flaky due to the half stop - plus I tune the D note to be in tune as a flatted 7 to the E chord. I just don't care for the sound of it. There are too many ways to get a minor that sound better IMHO. I do use the lever at both the D and C# for licks and stuff. I sometimes play out of that B chord position (again strings 1, 2 & 5 - just as reminder of what I am saying for beginners, as I have found several players in my travels that have no idea that B chord position exists).

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 7 Nov 2011 10:54 am

And as someone probably has mentioned, if you have a spit tuner on string 6, you can "split" this lever with the B pedal to get a G note (making a minor chord with no pedals and as a 7th with A+B).

Ned McIntosh · Post by **Ned McIntosh** » 7 Nov 2011 3:12 pm

On my Williams D10 I have the G# to F# lower (with a split for a nice major-to-minor change using pedal B without moving the bar) on my first RKL, and on my second RKL I have the F# to G# raise (no split on this one though). I guess I have both bases covered!

Every steel I have ever owned has had the G# to F# on RKL, I would feel a bit lost without it. Having the split to the G on the way through is really handy and well worth having.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 7 Nov 2011 3:30 pm

One of the beautiful things about pedal steel is "movement." I love being able to seamlessly go through, to of what I consider "suspensions," on that string. I'm probably completely incorrect with the names, but Add 4, and Add 2. I know the Add 2 is technically considered a 9th chord, but, depending on the way you move there, it really doesn't sound like a 9th. I started in '72, and heard that Buddy used this change. It made complete sense to me, and I built another knee lever to do it within a couple months of starting to play. Wouldn't be without that change!