Universal tuning finalized for the MSA.. thanks everyone!

[Hal Braun]

After my recent purchase of a 1982 MSA "The Universal" I have been trying to make a final copedent to start from in my quest to learn to play this guitar. I prefer blues and blues rock and want to take advantage of the ton of instruction material around the E9 and C6 tunings. I have Jeff Newman's 1980 book on the Universal and started there, and incorporated some learning from other forum players.

Within the limitations of the 8 pedals and 4 knee levers (and no 1/2 stop, thus the two knee lever changes on string 2 from D# to D to C# instead of on one) I put this together. I will take total blame for any errors!

If the general consensus is that this will work.. then I will start changing some of the pulls and rods and get to the woodshed! Thanks!!!

[Olli Haavisto]

Change the C# on the 11th string (RKL) to either raising the 9th string B to D or lowering the 8th string E to D and you`re good to go. The A# on the LKR would be better on a long LKV IMO but if the LKR is situated so that you can reach the 7th pedal OK, it probably doesn`t matter.

[Lee Baucum]

I agree with Olli.

On the RKL, I would raise the 9th string from B to D, instead of the 11th string lower.

The LKR lever, lowering the B one half step, will need to be moved closer to the center of the guitar; or, perhaps you could angle it so that it almost works like a vertical lever. You'll want to have access to that lever when playing the B6 pedals.

[Hal Braun]

Lee,

Correct me if I am wrong.. but with nothing on P8, and not using the LKR on P7.. I only have to reach over as far as P6 right? Engaging that lever with P7 drops the C# down to 1/2 way between C and B...

I saw a post where b0b suggested moving the LKR and LKV functions over one and using the A pedal.. how does this look.. taking into account the other changes suggested?

[Clete Ritta]

You may want to consider switching the RK levers around. If you plan on using your right foot on the B6 pedals 4-7 while lowering E's, it may be easier to reach them if your leg is going in that direction already. I say may because for some its not an issue.

Clete

[John Russell]

Here's my two cents. I eliminate pedal 7 by putting this change on P3. I raise E to F# (string 4) with RKL. Six pedals is about my limit. For me, knee levers are easier since my knees are easier to train than my feet . I use the "boo-wah" change very little and it could be eliminated as well--my new SD-12 may have just 5 pedals. Your mileage may very; I find elegance in simplicity. --JR

[Dave Mudgett]

Referring to your second diagram:

Why are you moving E=>F (F-lever) from LKL to LKR? This makes the dominant F-lever move (A+F) (for me, much) harder to execute. The normal mode for A-pedal only is to roll your ankle left while it's covering both A+B pedals - do not get in the habit of moving your foot left to hit the A-pedal only. This is opposite to your move-to-the-right motion for the F-lever when it's on LKR. Short story - if you're going to put F-lever on the left knee - Emmons (ABC) pedal setup: F-lever on LKL; Day setup (CBA) pedal setup: F-lever on LKR.

If you did that, then another useful change to put on LKR would be 6th string G#=>F#, which works well with the E-lever (E=>Eb). Some prefer F#=>G# on string 7. I like the 6th string G#=>F# change, since it can be split with the B-pedal to give the G note. I sometimes use B=>Bb on that lever, since it also works well with the E-lever, but generally have moved it to LKV (I see you don't have one and put that change on P0). Of course, another option would be to put B=>Bb on LKR and 6th string G#=>F# on P0. Maybe six of one, half dozen of the other.

I would also reverse your 2nd diagram RKL and RKR - my personal preference, probably not a big deal. For me there are two issues:

1. I use E-lever with LKR (either G#=>F# or B=>Bb on different guitars) quite a bit, and squeezing together feels better to me.

2. When you're squeezing the E-lever (a dominant move on a universal, since it puts the overall tuning in B6), it moves your right leg in the direction of the pedals, as Clete mentions. I would mainly use the right foot to hold down the Boo-Wah pedal (your P4), so I generally prefer that change on the right-most pedal. But that comes down to thinking about how you want to use your right-most pedals.

Everything is a tradeoff. Make a change to gain one thing, one frequently loses something else. But I think there are a few obvious things like F-lever on LKL for Emmons ABC setup. I use A+F lots playing blues - when hitting A+F, toggling A up/down goes between b7 and 1. When hitting A, finessing F gives microtones between b3 and 3. I need that group of changes to be very comfortable. I also use the F-lever with the E-lever on the opposite knee to finesse between whole-tone changes back-and-forth between F and Eb, and want that to be as comfortable as humanly possible. Think about what you want to do musically, lots of this stuff should make itself clear to you. Also realize you may need to try some things, see what works, what doesn't, and then make a few iterations.

My take.

[John Russell]

Since Hal said he plays lots of blues I have an observation. I play a fair amount of pentatonic runs (blues runs) for practically everything, including country and jazz. I find the best position for this is with pedals A and B down riffing as you would on slide guitar. Think Bonnie Raitt, Lowell George, etc. Of course you can work whatever pedals give the dominant 7th chords (second position with pedal A and E note raised to F, etc.) To me the mechanical motion of getting these licks don't sound all that "bluesy." One exception is the 9th chord you get playing the F# note with the middle E lowered to D. This chord is part of the E9 tuning on a 10-string. Those guys can't live without that voicing but to me it's a nuisance when you don't want it but very cool for blues. It's one reason I play universal.

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

One thing I'd do is move the E to F raises to your RKL as you don't use them "together" so IMHO they shouldn't be on separate knees.

I see from your first post that you like rock and blues so you might consider adding another pull on your "C" pedal. That would be raising the 11th string E to F#. This gives you another voicing for blues shuffles. Think of a blues shuffle in the key of C. You'd be at the 1st fret with your E's lowered and your root would be the low B string giving you a C note. You'd just hold down the "C" pedal and rock on and off the "B" pedal, you'll hear the voicing(s) of shuffles such as Honky Tonk or Memphis. Also, I'd put the 2nd string lower to D and the 8th string lower to D on LKR to eliminate the IV7 floor pedal. As far as the 5th string B to Bb, you could just stick that on pedal 8 and maybe use the LKL to raise both F#'s to G for another dominant 7th position or an augmented with your E's lowered............JH in Va.

[John Russell]

Good point Jerry. I might have to try that C pedal change. The F# to G on string 7 is a favorite of mine too--I l do it on the LKV to use with pedals A+B engaged. I agree that the E to F change should be on the same knee as E to Eb--I'd never want these two at the same time.

[Dave Mudgett]

IMO, any PSG player thinking about their E9 setup and especially the role of the E-lever and F-lever needs to read this thread, where Buddy Emmons and Paul Franklin each explain their reasons for handling the same-knee vs. different-knee issue differently:

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007769.html

A somewhat more recent discussion:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=160728

and this whole issue has been discussed many, many times if you search for the threads.

Another point of putting the E-lever on the right knee for an E9/B6 universal is that holding that lever in with the left knee for a long time (for working out of the resulting B6 tuning) can interfere with operating the pedals with the left foot. Obviously it doesn't bother some, but it seems to be an issue for many universal players.

Personally, I think most of the 'standard' E9/B6 changes work fine for most any music, including blues or rock, and the tuning doesn't really need a lot of 'special' changes. Since we're talking about an 8+4 setup here with limited lever changes, changing things does to some extent become a zero-sum game unless you want to add, e.g., more levers.

[John Russell]

I agree, Dave. To me, putting the E to Eb lever on the right knee to enable B6 changes makes sense if you still think in terms of two separate tunings. That's why some players lock the Es to Eb and move their feet over to play that tuning. If that works, don't let me stop you. I prefer to think of the 12 strings as one tuning with all voicings available all the time. Much like piano. How often do you get 6th voicings just using the A and B pedals? I do it constantly. So it makes sense to lower Es for that B6 sound while still using your A and B pedals then releasing the lever to play the E9 changes. Don't think of going from E9 to B6, think of finding chords using the basic changes. I only play three notes at a time.

[Dave Mudgett]

John - playing out of the 'B6 side' sometimes doesn't prevent any player from thinking about it as 'one big tuning' other times. It is really three tunings in one:

1. A type of Extended E9
2. A type of B6
3. Neither or both

There may be advantages to thinking about it in any one of these three ways in various situations. But it becomes harder for many to use approach #2 if their left knee is shackled to the E-lever.

Of course, some players sometimes play 4 or more notes at a time. There are 12 strings on there, and one can either rake strings or use more than 3 fingers at a time. This instrument, and especially this universal tuning, is astonishingly complex. My take.

[Tony Glassman]

FWIW: I recently switched over to a U-12 for the sole purpose of "lightening the load". Other than the weight, I was perfectly happy playing separate E9th and C6th necks.

So now I use a lock lever that lowers both my 4th and 8th string E's to Eb ---- PLUS lowers my 9th string D to B and the 10th string B to G#.....(my 11th string is an E and the 12th string is a B).

This allows me a traditional E9th tuning w/ a 9th string "D" plus a B6th tuning which is configured just like my C6th tuning was.

I prefer the lock-lever, so as to free up both knees for levers whether I'm playing in either 9th and 6th tunings. I find that the Right Knee Lever B--> Bb is essential for the 6th tuning and useful for E9th as well.

[Hal Braun]

Wow.. you guys are really amazing.. the amount of knowledge is almost overwhelming.. I have to agree a little with Dave when he says "This instrument, and especially this universal tuning, is astonishingly complex. My take."

After a lot of research, the single most common factor seemed to be the lack of a vertical knee lever, so, problem solved. Ordered one from Michael Yahl, should be there when I get home Friday from a business trip.

There are also an astonishing number of "nuances" that people use in their "common E9/B6" tunings but most seem to be based on the tradition Jeff Newman 12 string universal tuning for the most part. The other tuning that seemed very interesting based on my desired music type was a form of "Sacred Steel".

Accordingly, I have kind of narrowed it down to one or the other of these two tunings..





Please make any comments that you feel are appropriate, and to the people that helped me develop these, any mistakes are mine in ignorance in understanding your direction!

I think a couple of the most helpful comments made came from Larry Bell who said "A good player can play an entire gig with just E9 and two pedals..." and "Learn the nuts 'n' bolts of the tuning before you get too involved in the more esoteric aspects of it."

I think that is a VERY polite way of telling me what my Dad used to tell me in a different manner when he would say "Just shut up and play dammit!"

[Rich Peterson]

Since you are interested in blues and blues-rock, I suggest that you carefully check out Zane King's E6/9 copedent and his videos. The open tuning is an E major pentatonic scale (or C# minor pentatonic. Puts you right into the blues.

Since you are just getting started out, there is no need to deal with the re-entrant strings (the out of sequence 1st and 2nd strings of the E9th tuning.) That arrangement was developed as steelers added more strings and didn't want to relearn their picking habits ("grips.")

Zane says he can transfer everything in the popular courses to his tuning, and I don't believe anyone has proven him wrong.

[Joerg Hennig]

The "Sacred Steel" looks more like an E9 with added 6th to me. One thing I don't get is the function of P5 and RKR. The chart says they change string 5 to C# but it is already tuned to C#? On a Sacred Steel tuning it would more likely be tuned to D and lowered to C# on a lever.
Also, you might want to check out the possibility of having the E to F# raise on string 4 independent from the B to C# on string 6 by putting it on a knee lever so that you can play the E to F# against the unaltered B string (very useful for blues playing) and still get the "C pedal" move if you need it. (I like this so much better than the regular "C pedal").
Last, I would consider dropping the lowest B string (string 12). It isn't really any good if you don't have the "B6" changes to go along with it, unless you want to get into the range of the bass guitar. I would suggest to put the low E there instead and make string 11 G# (hooked up to the B pedal to raise it to A). The low A is also very important for blues and rock and the way the tuning is now, there isn't any on it.

[Danny Naccarato]

Add a full tone pull to LKR on string 1, F#>G#

[ed packard]

Many moons ago when I came back to the steel guitar , I got a 12 string E9/B6, then heard Bill Stafford on his 14 string E9/B6 with the B6 lok and got one of those.

Bill went off to Saudi and I reworked the PSG with a destination in mind. That destination was to get the most chords I could. The reasoning is that most acceptable melody notes are a chord note, and the chords are played on the beat so having the chord available also give you the on the beat note (most cases).

To be short about it, I ended up with NC = the I neck, P1P2 = the IV neck, and L> = the v neck. This gives I,IV,v necks/chords all on the same fret. Now add the b3,b5,#5,etc. and other variations to each neck via activating changes and you have a fairly complete instrument.

The I chord/neck is a I69, the IV neck is a IV6, and the V neck is a V69 before adding the b3,b5 etc notes.

One way to study this approach is to map the changes as intervals, using each string as a root note for the chord.

One nice thing to be able to do is to harmonize the scale with 3 and 4 tone chords. Another is to be able to use triplets on the same fret wherein the center note is not a chord note...as in E,F#,G# (think the E9 = I neck).

The short form of the finished product is shown at the link below:

http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/ ... TRUCTURES/

Setup/coped =:


A list of the changer intervals using each string as a root are shown at above link:

Example showing the IV neck.



A few of the available chord structures are shown at the above link:

Example of some chord locations:



Or more on the subject may be found at:

http://steelguitarbuilder.com/forum/vie ... 5cd77adab1

[Hal Braun]

Ed.. I think I just messed myself..

[Robert Harper]

Guys you sometimes amaze me. I can see how you can methodically set down and write this out. But, how do you remember all of this stuff when the drummer is banging, the bass is thumping, the lead is a picking, the rhythm is rhyming and the singer is singing and you have to look at the beaauties on the dance floor

[Hal Braun]

Guys you sometimes amaze me. I can see how you can methodically set down and write this out. But, how do you remember all of this stuff when the drummer is banging, the bass is thumping, the lead is a picking, the rhythm is rhyming and the singer is singing and you have to look at the beaauties on the dance floor

I personally concentrate on the beauties on the dance floor..

I would like to thank all that helped, here and privately and figured I would show you the final/final (at least to start this bizarre addiction) copedent. I did add a vertical knee lever (thanks Michael) that works perfectly! so that also helps "modernize" the 1982 MSA U12.

It is very similar to Jeff Newman's E9/B6 he published in "The Universal E9, B6 Course" in 1980 with a few "modernizations".

I went this way for a couple of reasons.. one, the large database of instructional material for that tuning, along with C6 and E9 instructions that will be applicable.. and the fact (thanks Larry B.) that anything your want to play (blues to swing) is available.. you may just have to work at it a little harder.. Also, the MSA is a bear to change copedents on (all those little allen screws under the rods)so it is not something I wanted to be doing every week. I also wanted a "mainstream" tuning so I could continue to ask for help



And for comparison, here is Jeff Newman's copied from the 1980 edition of his universal course