"A" pedal tuning problem

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 18 Jul 2011 8:41 pm

This started about a week ago on the gig. I noticed my "A" pedal was not pulling the open B string to C#. This is an intermittent problem. It will be ok for a few pulls then it will be flat. When it goes flat the next time I press it I noticed a slight popping sound like something is hung up somewhere.
The nylon tuner looks fine. No cracks. At home on the tuner it does the same..it's ok then goes flat.
I checked the bridge for debree.
Now the "C" pedal raise for same string to C#, that tuner has a hairline crack in it. But that change is staying in tune.
Any ideas as to what could be causing this problem?
I've only had one similiar prob with this Excel D10 since 97. The same nylon tuner was cracked and slipped all the time.But never was intermiitent. It just went bad and no popping sound!
Thanks for reading.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 18 Jul 2011 9:58 pm

Maybe the bellcrank is slipping on the 'A' pedal cross-shaft and needs tightening up.

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 19 Jul 2011 1:21 am

Check this - Push the A pedal at two different 'speeds': First, push the A pedal down as quickly as you can with your foot and check to see 'where' the tuning of the C# note is; then push the A pedal as slowly as you can and check 'where' the tuning of the C# is at. Do this several times, perhaps alternating the fast and slow motions. If you find that the C# is sharper when pedal A is pushed quickly than when it is pushed slowly, I would suspect the return spring for the changers fifth string. With springs, it is the 'nature of the beast' that if they are weak, it will show up more readily when the motion is slow. If this is the case, you may be able to 'see' it if you turn the guitar upside down and without necessarily picking the string, just operate the A pedal (by hand) quickly, then slowly, and watch carefully the 'lowering portion' of the changers 5th 'finger' and see if it pulls away from it's 'stop bar' (the piece underneath that the fingers rest against when no pedal/knee is pushed). If it is the spring, it can be tightened, or replaced.

Another place to have a look is to be sure that the 'puller' or 'bell crank' is indeed secure on it cross-shaft. It could be possible that the socket-head screw that secure it may have worked loose. If so an allen wrench (dunno what size, offhand, but surely a metric size) will tighten it. If it's a tight spot to get to, they have 'ball tipped' allen wrenches that can go into a socket-head screw at an angle.

Another spot to check might be the 'pedal crank' which is the piece that the pedal rod hooks into, which is secured to the (front) end of the cross-shaft. Depending on the vintage of the Excel, it may be secured to the cross shaft by a socket-head screw, as are the bell cranks. However if the pedal crank was loose, it would be effecting the 10th strings C# as well.

One other check would be to see how secure the threaded end of the pull rod is in it's nylon tuner.
Of the Excels I have worked with, the way the pullrod system operated was that the nylon 'tuner' that was in the 'tuning window' (the nylon part that you would place the tuning wrench into) was secured (actually super-glued) to its pull rod, and the whole pull rod turned as you tuned. The pull rod was threaded thru a round nylon 'insert' in the 'puller' (bell crank), which was where the actual tuning 'adjustment' took place. I'm thinking Mitsuo hasn't changed this arrangement in his current guitars, but in any case have a look to check to see if the pullrod might be slipping wherever the pull rod is threaded into nylon.

I wouldn't suspect the C pedal would provide any problem like this unless, per chance, its pull rod is so tight (over-tuned) that the pull rod is actually 'holding' the finger from coming to rest completely against the 'stop bar'. To determine this, if you can't tell by sight, check the open tuning (B note) then 'back off' (counterclockwise) the C pedals tuning and check if the B note has flattened. If so, this would tell you that the C pedal was 'holding' the open note (B) sharp, and providing the changer finger with a 'false at-rest' position.
~Russ

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 19 Jul 2011 4:51 am

you have your nylon nut turned in too far it is riding or pushing the changer. I see this a lot. what happens as the strings gets older we find our self tuning at that end rule of thumb is if you know that nylon but turns tight and is not really lose but yet find yourself turning it to tune then you need new strings, so over time after so many tunes you get this problem. this fix is turn that nut all the way out where you know its not hitting the changer turn open then push your pedal tune it. now this will apply if you have not changed any other adjustment on the guitar such as pedal travel hole position in bell crank.
also back the nut out on the C pedal change as well before tuning the open position A pedal or C pedal nylon nut is turned in too far.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Jul 2011 5:13 am

So, are you having to re-tune the nylon nut or, leaving it alone, the change comes back flat at times and normal at other?

If so, after checking the things that Russ mentioned, look for a pull rod banging into another rod or bellcrank etc. and binding it at certain times. If it has the entire pull rod turning as you tune it, as Russ suggests, make sure all of the rods run at nice right angles as possible to the changer and cross rods and none of them are bent. Also make sure all your stops are adjusted properly, solid, and the pull is bottoming out evenly against the stop for all pulls on that pedal.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 19 Jul 2011 5:18 am

If a tuner is too tight you should be able to see it..
When all the fingers are at rest they should line up and if one is out it will be sticking out.

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 19 Jul 2011 6:20 am

you wont always see it Ken best thing is to back all the nuts out thats on that string and start over if it goes away you fixed it if it didnt then continue on to something else but Id bet thats the problem. seen it too many times

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 19 Jul 2011 6:23 am

WELL, SO FAR THE INTERMITTENT PROBLEM IS THAT THE C# NOTE IS FLAT WHEN THE "A" PEDAL IS PUSHED DOWN THEN THAT POPPING SOUND ON THE NEXT PUSH. LIKE SOMETHING WAS CAUSING THAT NOTE NOT TO BE IN TUNE...
I WILL TRY ALL YOU HAVE SAID...
THANK YOU EVERYBODY FOR YOUR HELP. I WILL POST WHAT I FIND...

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 19 Jul 2011 6:38 am

I know this sounds obvious, but since I didn't see it mentioned, check for foreign objects in the changer, like a lost string ball end or other debris if you haven't already.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 19 Jul 2011 6:40 am

It sounds to me like the changer is lifting off on the raise, maybe due to not enough spring tension. It can happen if you change to a heavier string. Look closely at the changer while engaging the pedals. See how it looks on a raise that's working properly and compare it to the problematic one.

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 19 Jul 2011 6:49 am

WELL, SO FAR...I CHECKED TO SEE IF I HAD TUNED THAT NUT TOO TIGHT..I BACKED IT OUT..RETUNED..WAS NOT IT.
I CANNOT SEE ANY DEBREE CAUSING THIS...IT'S WEIRD HOW THAT NOTE GOES FLAT BUT NOT EVER TIME...THEN THAT POPPING SOUND ON THE NEXT TRY...
I WILL GO THRU ALL THE STEPS YOU ALL SUGGESTED.
MORE COFFEE ON...THANKS AGAIN

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 19 Jul 2011 7:00 am

tony you must back off all the nuts that has anything to do with that pull also back off the nuts on the 10th string as well. then after that if it still happens then move on. so pedal A strings 5 & 10, pedal C string 5. back all those out tune open then tune the pulls

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 19 Jul 2011 8:38 am

HI JOE, I WILL TRY THAT WHAT YOU SUGGESTED.
I CAN HEAR THE POPPING SOUND COMING FROM UNDER THE BRIDGE. I HAVE THE GUITAR UPSIDE DOWN IN IT'S CASE. THE RETURN SPRING FOR THE 5TH STRING IS MAKING THIS SOUND. ALTHOUGH THE BRACKET THE HOLD THAT PEDAL ROD TO THE CROSS SHAFT WAS LOOSE. I TIGHTENED IT..NOW THE POPPING SOUND IS CONSTANT. SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING IS CATCHING OR RUBBING...WEIRD...THANKS AGAIN.

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 19 Jul 2011 8:38 am

HI JOE, I WILL TRY THAT WHAT YOU SUGGESTED.
I CAN HEAR THE POPPING SOUND COMING FROM UNDER THE BRIDGE. I HAVE THE GUITAR UPSIDE DOWN IN IT'S CASE. THE RETURN SPRING FOR THE 5TH STRING IS MAKING THIS SOUND. ALTHOUGH THE BRACKET THE HOLD THAT PEDAL ROD TO THE CROSS SHAFT WAS LOOSE. I TIGHTENED IT..NOW THE POPPING SOUND IS CONSTANT. SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING IS CATCHING OR RUBBING...WEIRD...THANKS AGAIN.

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 19 Jul 2011 8:39 am

HI JOE, I WILL TRY THAT WHAT YOU SUGGESTED.
I CAN HEAR THE POPPING SOUND COMING FROM UNDER THE BRIDGE. I HAVE THE GUITAR UPSIDE DOWN IN IT'S CASE. THE RETURN SPRING FOR THE 5TH STRING IS MAKING THIS SOUND. ALTHOUGH THE BRACKET THE HOLD THAT PEDAL ROD TO THE CROSS SHAFT WAS LOOSE. I TIGHTENED IT..NOW THE POPPING SOUND IS CONSTANT. SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING IS CATCHING OR RUBBING...WEIRD...THANKS AGAIN.

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 19 Jul 2011 8:40 am

lol..how in the heck did this post 3x??

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 19 Jul 2011 8:47 am

have you broke a string that you could not find the missing piece? the ball end sometimes those things will fall in there and cause a nightmare

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 19 Jul 2011 8:47 am

have you broke a string that you could not find the missing piece? the ball end sometimes those things will fall in there and cause a nightmare

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 19 Jul 2011 8:53 am

I changed the strings a month ago. All was fine until a week ago. Now, my "B" pedal is doing this too.. not as much as pedal "A"...
I can see when I push the A pedal that the return spring is moving then "POPS" back even when I am still holding the pedal down.
Could it be that return springs need tightening?
Now the B pedal...i guess i was so concerned over the A pedal i overlooked it...jeeez...

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 19 Jul 2011 9:11 am

Tony Kotula wrote:Could it be that return springs need tightening?

Drop a little oil between the fingers and tighten that spring about a half turn. Hopefully that fixes the problem. It could be the weather.

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 20 Jul 2011 10:14 am

first i tried the retune on the 5th string nylon nut. i backed it out and retuned. same problem. then i tightend the return spring one whole turn. same prob. Joe Barcus suggested I retune all of C# changes. I backed them all out retuned. Now the guitar is playing ok...the C# note is not going flat.
BUT..that POPPING sound is still there. More so when I press my A pedal slow. I am not sure if the spring is too tight..too loose...needs relacing...or something else causing this binding and popping sound. I can see the spring pop when I have the guitar upside down.
I want to swap a spring from my C6th neck to see if that changes anything. I've never changed one...anytghing special I should be aware of??
Thank you all for your help with this one.
This forum is awesome!!!
Bump to the top please!!!

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 20 Jul 2011 10:23 am

can you lay on the floor press the pedals and look for what is snapping may be just a pull rod against another in the upright position if its making that much noise you should be able to locate it. Joe

Tony Kotula · Post by **Tony Kotula** » 20 Jul 2011 10:50 am

HI JOE,
Well I can see the spring when I have guitar upside down in the case. Easier for me this way. I can see that spring pop when I press the pedal...the rods all look fine. Nothing is rubbing or causing them to bind.
But I can see anything in the finger to cause this.
It's not going flat ...but something is not right. I use this steel on a 3 night house gig. It rarely moves. I have another steel at home to practice on.
I religously oil the bridge..and use the same gauge strings. My pedals and knees barely need tweeking when I change strings.
I am sorta clueless now about this..but will dig deeper. It's driving me nuts. I hope it's something small that I am just not seeing now...Thank you for your help. I am close..but not out of the woods.
T

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 20 Jul 2011 10:56 am

it sure does act like a spring not tight enough it moves with your pedal till finally cant take the pull and goes back in place. its the lower fighting with the raise well kind of sounds like it. dumb I know but check to make sure that the spring itself isnt pulling something else other than the finger

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 20 Jul 2011 11:51 am

"the whole pull rod turned as you tuned. "

Hmmmm! Kinda like a Rack and Barrels Shobud. Interesting!
I wonder if the spring popping is the result of something else messing up?

The Steel Guitar Forum