Steel Players in the Dumpster...

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 28 May 2011 3:50 pm

"The steel guitar is a country instrument" etc. "Steel guitar is country and country alone" (a phrase written by some journalist in a Ralph Mooney obituary)
I am getting sick and tired of it. Did anyone ever say, "The piano is suitable only for classical music", or, "the organ only for church music"? The point is, those instruments have been around for centuries and at the time were used for music that today is considered "classical", but eventually have found their way into other genres that only were invented afterwards. The (pedal) steel guitar, on the other hand, is one of the youngest instruments known today. I think it is pretty far-fetched to say that its development has already reached the stage of completion. Who knows what future generations will come up with?
Now, personally, I did not get into steel because of "traditional" country music. I grew up on rock'n'roll and, especially, blues. What turned me on to steel were the country-rock groups of the 1970s, particulary NRPS with Buddy Cage who always thought of himself as a rock player and, after I got to know him personally, strongly tried to steer me into that direction. What happened instead was, after I got good enough to play out, I kind of got sucked into the country scene because it was the only genre where steel guitar was readily accepted. I heard a lot of comments like, "the steel guitar is what makes it sound country". It got to the point where I couldn't hear it anymore. I went to see Dale Watson at the time when Ricky Davis had just left his band and he was touring with a guitar player instead, and from the stage he addressed that very subject, saying something like, "Country music comes from the heart, it doesn't matter what instruments are used on it". I believe Dale is one who should know.
Don't get me wrong, I love good country music with steel. For instance, I will always be a hardcore Texas Troubadours fan, but don't forget, as soon as ET left the stage, Charleton and Rhodes would tear it up with a style that must have been considered very progressive in those days and definitely went beyond "country".
And what about Buddy Emmons and "Steel Guitar Jazz"? Wasn't that the first album to prove that the steel guitar fits in perfectly well with a jazz environment? How about "Night Life"? A perfect example of the steel guitar's potential to play the blues. Remember, we are still in the "old days" here!
It's time to move on. If someone offered me a nice old time country gig, I would be happy to accept it, it just doesn't seem very likely to happen. I am more than willing to expand into genres other than country, especially with my background in blues and psychedelic rock, the only trouble is to find people to play with. Apart from the problem of finding musicians willing to accept the PSG as what it is - a guitar and not "one of them country things", the live music scene, at least around here, is not what it used to be. Nobody seems to be interested at all and this is becoming really really frustrating.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 28 May 2011 4:23 pm

I have a dog in this fight.

When the original Firebird Suite cassette was released, there were 2 reviews in Steel Guitar World. One said that the tape "...didn't satisfy the needs of the steel guitar community" and ended with the words "Michael, go back to playing country." The other review began with the words; "WARNING: STAY AWAY FROM THIS TAPE. It's as far from country as you can get."

At the same time, I encountered a lot of resistance from people in the classical music community who said that the steel was a country instrument incapable of playing anything else. I should point out that the majority of these people changed their minds after hearing what I had done, but there were some who refuse to even listen, insisting without having heard the recordings, that the mere fact that I played what they considered to be "their" music on a pedal steel guitar meant that I had to have played it country style.

I take this discussion personally. I think everybody can see why.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 28 May 2011 4:52 pm

Please see below. I'm having real problems with my computer...

John Turbeville · Post by **John Turbeville** » 28 May 2011 4:53 pm

Listen to "looks like rain" by Bob Weir with (i think) garcia playing PSG and tell me its a "country only" instrument. One of the best songs ever written, and really showcases the PSG.

Pedal steel adds a magical texture to many types of music when sparingly applied. When overused, it sounds almost like a cheesy pipe organ....IMHO.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 28 May 2011 4:58 pm

I guess this is my time to be in Groundhog Day...

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 28 May 2011 5:07 pm

In looking at my original post, I see that I'm mixing what's up in my mind with what I'm posting, something that happens with the confusers... Here us waht I meant, part 2:

What Bill said. I don't give a rat's behind about what you play on your instrument. If you want to make bird whistles with your steel or play jazz that was stale in 1965, hey, go for it. I-l-i-k-e c-o-u-n-t-r-y-m-u-s-i-c. I make no apology for it.

It takes a lot of skill and practice to play those "easy" tunes, same as Bluegrass. It takes squat to play 95 percent of what passes for "country" on the radio. In my opinion as someone who listens to it and can see in my mind what is being played on the guitar cause there ain't much steel in that stuff folks...

What I did say was:

There isn't any country -- real country music -- left to pick these days and a lot of steel guitars are in the closet and their owners out of work.

John Turbeville · Post by **John Turbeville** » 28 May 2011 5:47 pm

Basicaly, I only like P. Cline and D. Williams in terms of country. I cant listen to any of the modern stuff.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 29 May 2011 12:53 am

Mike, I never took the time to listen to your music, now at last I know what you mean.
Your music is beautiful!

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 29 May 2011 4:59 am

Thank you Joachim. I'm glad you like it. But even more, I'm glad you understand why I'm so passionate about this.

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 29 May 2011 6:24 am

Dave: I know Bobbe is an exceptionally talented musician, and plays numerous styles. I was going by things I've read here and in his newsletters, so while I would never wish to put words in his mouth either, I still believe the overall slant is that steel is perhaps best showcased in trad country. And as Mike mentioned, this is subjective, as are most of our comments.

Tom: Does seem your thread took on a life of its own.
However,just look at the steelers in places like Texas - sounds like they're busy. If you meant real country on commercial radio, you're right. But even then, satellite and internet radio certainly offer a far wider variety, and in the Cleveland OH area, we have numerous college stations, playing all manner of music, including trad country and alternative - as well as alt. - country music with steel
.
John T: I know it's a tad off-topic, but I don't understand what you mean by "cheesy pipe organ". If you mean the electric organs that define classic cheesy roller-rink music, I get it. But I haven't heard of pipe organs referred to that way. (You can PM me, if you prefer, just to keep things on track in this thread).

Mike: Glad you stuck to your guns. I'll bet you recall the ruckus Tom Bradshaw started in his sadly short-lived STEEL GUITARIST magazine, when he editorialized about moving steel into other realms. His record club ran a gamut of styles, and while I was learning pedal steel at the time and wanted to hear country steel, I was finding fascinating sounds available on steel that had no place in country. And Chas Smith even did a tab for a Bach piece way back in the dark 1970s. Thank God we can have it all!

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 29 May 2011 6:50 am

The steel guitar, and country music are far from dead, topographically

.

Like I said to me and several other players it's a geographical 'thingie'

.
Phred I don't mean to split hairs here, but which is it? Topographical and geographical are two different 'thingies.'

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 29 May 2011 7:01 am

I'm hoping and am also reasonably confident that true C&W is where Bluegrass was in the late '50s -- at the nadir of its popular recognition, kept alive by a small group of enthusiasts in the hinterlands.

It's hard to play pedal steel as it was played in the late '50s to the early '80s -- real hard. There's no skill in making bird whistles and moose f@rts but to play Sally Good'n at 280BPM and actually pick it -- well that's a whole other matter.

Bluegrass is alive and well on the Opry stage these days and festivals continue to sprout up in unlikely places. I'm hoping the same happens for hard country, Bakersfield picking and old Nashville pop. In the meantime I'll leave the porch light on for all of you "innovators." :- ) a s I post that...

And FWIW I'm listening to the radio out of Nevada City this early Sunday morning. Pedal steel is popping up one every third song. The picking ain't much but it's there...

Tq

Bill Howard · Post by **Bill Howard** » 29 May 2011 7:14 am

Tom you may as well give up.
Saying you like real country music anyplace on the forum will bring out the Wolves PDQ!.
The "New Generation Cool hand Luke Steel players".
Don't like the FACT that Steel Guitars are considered a Country Instrument by 98% of the population. How dare the public think such a thing about this Piano like rock and roll Jazz,Rap,Pop Instrument!. THINKING it was developed by "Country Musicians".
there is a post on forum. "traditional country music is like a Poem to Stupid to be put into words" by Ignorant people"
Bottom line Tom?. You could have said General Grant is buried in Grants Tomb someone would have PROOF positive that it was General Lee.
The Forum was developed to share the love of steel guitar,It has turned into a place of conflict.
Sad but true Tom. I was hacked last year for saying something about one of the little Stud Muffin new guys not being Country, THEIR NOT!. Neither is 99+% of whats coming out of Trashville. Your right about your original post, a LOT of Guys quit playing steel or don't play anymore because they don't want to play Pop Music on them and Love ET or Jack Greene.
Like you I feel like if you want to play Wagner or Bach on one have at it. We ALL know Steel Guitars were developed by Pop and Rock Musicians. weren't they??.

Jay Fagerlie · Post by **Jay Fagerlie** » 29 May 2011 7:22 am

Dave M- Bobbee also played on a .....ahem.... Judas Priest album.....that is a little far from the country side....
Tom- start something yourself- put together a band and play out, make the scene for yourself. I'm up here in the hills of Coloma, but I would definitely come out to support your cause- I go see all the local players I can...Pete, Chris, Dave at the WSS....If you build it....People will come.

Jay

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 29 May 2011 7:48 am

Thanks!

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 29 May 2011 7:53 am

Bill: I'd assume that most of the Forumites, myself included, still enjoy hard country music.
Not a thing wrong there. Period.
We're just trying to say that steel guitarists can and perhaps should move outside their comfort zones. Think about it: pedal steel evolved from the Hawaiian guitar. Should we bemoan the fact that Hawaiian music is no longer around the way it was in its heyday (the '30s)? All the lap and Hawaiian steel players should be chiming in that it's their instrument we co-opted and made country. And guitarists? Shouldn't they stick with Spanish music and forsake the heretical use of electric guitars? Or go back even further and learn the lute or the oud? Nothing exists in a vacuum. But while time never stands still, savoring and enjoying parts of the past can be most enjoyable.

Jay: Yep, better to light a candle n all that...
Little or no money in it, but playing what you enjoy with like-minded musicians is quite rewarding.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 29 May 2011 9:17 am

To Tom's revised thesis - 'hard' country the way many of us talk about it here is certainly not a major market force in the music world. But I guess I'd argue it never was - it was a mostly regional thing that broke out occasionally elsewhere. But for the most part, I don't think the numbers were ever anywhere near what is expected of major mainstream popular music these days - or then, for that matter.

I also agree that the days of a large mainstream club circuit featuring that kind of country music is largely gone today, except in certain pockets like parts of the southwest and perhaps certain places in the deep south, as Fred suggests.

But frankly, the band club circuit nationally is a ghost of its 30-40-ago self. We've discussed the reasons on here many times - tough DUI enforcement, DJs, karaoke, and general change in the culture. But I'll also say that I have no problem here in the wilds of Central Pennsylvania finding people who want to play hard country music in clubs. I wish I had more time to take some of these people up on it. In fact, I think, in these parts, there is a smaller supply of steel players than demand for them.

... I still believe the overall slant is that steel is perhaps best showcased in trad country

I've never heard that from Bobbe or most other major steel players I've either talked with or read. I think it's largely a myth that the major players are somehow trying to influence the field of steel guitar to restrict itself to traditional country music.

BTW - I have heard nobody on this thread trash traditional country. I love it and will to my dying breath. Give it up, that's not what this is about. The concern some of us have expressed is that if the rank-and-file world of steel guitar players somehow sells the ridiculous idea that steel guitar should be restricted to only traditional country music, its future is likely to be very limited. But that's a conditional statement - it depends on the idea that most steel players want to and are able to sell that particular concept, and I don't think either premise is true. And, BTW - neither is the premise that steel guitar (or even pedal steel guitar) was developed for country music. Alvino Rey was the first big pedal steel star, and I believe that type of music - swing/jazz/popular - was what pedal steel was originally developed for. Country adopted the instrument and found new uses for it, just as blues, sacred steel, and other players have also adopted it and found new uses for it.

I'm hoping and am also reasonably confident that true C&W is where Bluegrass was in the late '50s -- at the nadir of its popular recognition, kept alive by a small group of enthusiasts in the hinterlands.

Tom - I hope you're right, but I think this is an idea that is in very strong need of promotion, and I don't think it's going very well right at the moment. I and others have discussed this many times here - my comments on this thread more or less sum up my thoughts on that - http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1778446

Daniel Morris · Post by **Daniel Morris** » 29 May 2011 3:16 pm

Dave:
I always appreciate your thoughtful posts; I certainly don't want to denigrate Bobbe or other traditional steelers, but I can't get away from the feeling that perhaps he and others feel too nostalgic for the old days, and the place of steel in that music. Yes, I feel nostalgic for some things, and don't think that's bad, but as I mentioned previously, it strikes me that the attitude is like jazz buffs who cannot accept, say, Ornette, Cecil Taylor or whomever, because it's not hard bop (all of which I like). If Bobbe is genuinely progressive or visionary, I'm genuinely happy to hear it, but don't get that from his "tips" or posts. (Bobbe, please chime in!)
I read a wonderful labor history book that used Chicago as a case study. It gives a real sense of the tension between the original Polish immigrants who wanted to preserve their heritage, and their children who grew up American, never knew Poland, and wanted to assimilate into the American fabric of life. Kind of like Tevye in FIDDLER ON THE ROOF, the standard bearers cannot accept change. They should never be denigrated (as I would not want to do to Bobbe or any others), but so many seem to cling to the past and won't move beyond it. I resolutely believe we can have both - a recognition of our instrument's heritage, and a progression beyond it.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 30 May 2011 11:15 am

I'm sure you know that what is on the radio is entirely under the supervision of the producer and the artist, and they are intentionally trying to shade the music for the radio market - meaning, no solos that would require you to remember the beginning to make sense of it, no storytelling content to the lyrics that would require any kind of listening skill. Radio has been TV-ized = Steel guitar/fiddle/harmonica/Telecaster each get a 2-second burst to signify that the listener is "country" then up and out.

It's hard to play pedal steel as it was played in the late '50s to the early '80s -- real hard. There's no skill in making bird whistles and moose f@rts but to play Sally Good'n at 280BPM and actually pick it -- well that's a whole other matter....

It takes a lot of skill and practice to play those "easy" tunes, same as Bluegrass. It takes squat to play 95 percent of what passes for "country" on the radio. In my opinion as someone who listens to it and can see in my mind what is being played on the guitar cause there ain't much steel in that stuff folks...

- T.Q.

And that's Paul Franklin we're talking about here. O.K., your expertise is appreciated.

And as for the steel in other genres, the only player I ever heard who could do it was the guy in the Hacienda Brothers -- he could play horn lines like no one else.

So you've never even listened to Dave Easley, Bruce Kaphan, Mike Perlowin, Jim Cohen, Doug Jernigan's jazz tunes, even... aw heck. Why bother, huh? Could anything be weirder?

I don't even own a pedal steel but sometimes I'll visualize a song and can feel myself moving the levers, pressing the pedals and palm blocking the licks as I listen to the music. But what's the point if there are no venues to play?

Oh, O.K.! Jeez guy - just listen for a while... ask questions like, "Where CAN I find great steel guitar playing?" It will be on your forty-year-old records, it won't be on Ernest Tubb's new album cause he's DEAD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLqRh7_aiM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw2b73Yk7Hk

And as for the steel in other genres, the only player I ever heard who could do it was the guy in the Hacienda Brothers

- this is nothing to be proud of, Mr. Quinn, but you can educate your way out of it.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 30 May 2011 12:20 pm

Okay, now you've tee'd me off.

Doug Jernigan is from my generation. So is Paul Franklin. Both are monster pickers, that's beyond doubt. There are in fact a lot of good steel pickers still in Nashville but the work has dried up compared to what it once was. And the music today, compared to what it once was, is not as interesting in my book.

By other genres I mean outside of country or swing. Steel players have been doing that for the last 80 years. It's all good, but i was talking about R&B I guess. anyone can take a fuzztone and play blues but to play horn lines that are believable, well that's a real talent.

Your links:

I know both Komozawa-san and Tamura-san, I know all about them. Nice guys, I went to one of their concerts once. They are part of the Fuiji-san group of pickers.

The other guy's music is similar to what Buddy, Doug and many others were doing in the '60s. I'm not much into that stuff but if you like I great.

That is not what I am talking about so why the wise cracks about what you perceive as ignorance on my part. I drove a VW bus twice to Nashville to take lessons from Jeff Newman as a young man with no money because i wanted so badly to play correctly.

I played pedal steel in a GD spin-off band with my friend Billy Kreutzmann. Played with Gene Clark a few times, played with my great friend Gene Parsons on many occasions, both on the steel and on my '54 Tele with a stringbender in it. I've jammed with anyone and everyone from Johnny winter to Steve Stills. Johnny Barbata was the drummer in my band on many, many occasions. Took music theory classes from Booker T.

I can play my friend and i've been around the block.

I do my best to not be rude here, cause we all have different opinions. You might do the same Dave...

Oh yeah, here's a shot form the old days. You might have heard of some of the people. Guy Clark, Bob Weir, Minor Wilson and myself. Ring a bell?

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 30 May 2011 3:50 pm

I just re-read this thread, and I have to say, Tom never said that the steel should be confined to playing traditional country to the exclusion of everything else. He merely said he liked that kind of playing. We hijacked his thread, and I played a part if that. Sorry about that Tom.

Obviously I’m a big advocate of taking the steel into new and different genres. But that doesn’t mean that the older styles should be abandoned, or that there is something wrong with playing or enjoying them. Actually I think it’s important that those styles be preserved, and people carry on those traditions. But I don’t think every player needs to do that, and it's not something I personally choose to do.

I insist in having the right to play and listen to the music that appeals to me. But it works both ways. People who like and want to play country have the same right.

There should be room for all of us.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 30 May 2011 4:06 pm

For whoever asked:

to·po·graph·i·cal
adj \-fi-kəl\
Definition of TOPOGRAPHICAL
1
: topographic
2
: of, relating to, or concerned with the artistic representation of a particular locality <a> <topographical>

Guess I've been reading Hankey too long. Damn both fit.

phred

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 30 May 2011 5:09 pm

I just got worked up when I read this:

It takes squat to play 95 percent of what passes for "country" on the radio. In my opinion as someone who listens to it and can see in my mind what is being played on the guitar cause there ain't much steel in that stuff folks...

And this:

And as for the steel in other genres, the only player I ever heard who could do it was the guy in the Hacienda Brothers -- he could play horn lines like no one else.

I guess I shouldn't get caught up in these things.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 30 May 2011 5:13 pm

And as for the steel in other genres, the only player I ever heard who could do it was the guy in the Hacienda Brothers -- he could play horn lines like no one else.

I think that was Dave Berzansky from San Diego and he can really play.

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 30 May 2011 6:47 pm

Right, it's Dave Berzansky. He played great country as well as swing steel on those albums, but when it came to play R&B, instead of laying down or going for effects he played chord groups that totally nailed the Memphis Horns. Check out "It Tears Me Up" sometime... Or this incredibly great mix of C&W playing AND horn lines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UktWopOV3j8

More good stuff in a different vein:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naiRAHQo ... re=related

You guys do know who Dan Penn is, right? And I realize that everyone has an opinion and some of you have different ways of expressing it.

Thanks Dave Mason for your input...

The Steel Guitar Forum

Steel Players in the Dumpster...

psg

Tom's original post