Are your rollers groves all the same size?

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 24 Mar 2011 10:52 am

Look at the little rollers on your guitar. The rollers I am talking about are the rollers as your strings go over the left bridge to the tuning keys. The groves in the rollers on 2 of my guitars are all the same size. The groves in the rollers on one of my guitars are different sizes, to fit the different size strings. One brand of guitar has taken the time to grove each of the little rollers different according to string size. The other brand of guitars are using the same grove size in each roller, even though some strings are bigger than others. It just so happens that this one guitar that has the groved rollers to fit the string sizes sounds a lot better than the guitars that have all the same groved rollers. Could this be "a small part" of why this particular guitar sound so much better? If your guitar has groved rollers to fit different size strings tell me what brand it is? Are builders cutting corners using all the same size groves in the rollers when some strings are bigger than others?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 24 Mar 2011 11:46 am

grovey man!

my p/p's have one-size-fits-all groves and seem to work fine.

...and grover tuners.

Gary Richardi · Post by **Gary Richardi** » 24 Mar 2011 11:50 am

Very timely! I'm getting ready to order a set of gauged brass rollers from Don @ BSG for a steel from a builder (who shall remain nameless) that makes atrocious facsimiles of rollers that are not even near round nevermind gauged for each string. Lemme get my magnifiers on and see if those Carter Starter string-end rollers are gauged

Storm Rosson · Post by **Storm Rosson** » 24 Mar 2011 11:56 am

Apples and oranges Keith, some say one size v groove rollers are best others prefer gauged rollers.....so it one o them preferential things apparently. Don Burroughs of BSG guitars will cut u set of gauged rollers from brass or prolly Al if u prefer, to fit any guitar nut. Just let him know the dimension of the roller and your particular string gauges....Stormy

Ryan Barwin · Post by **Ryan Barwin** » 24 Mar 2011 12:03 pm

My Emmons and Excel guitars have gauged rollers, which work great. Supposedly, you get string buzzing from non-gauged rollers, but I don't see why it would be a problem if you can mute the strings behind the bar with your bar hand fingers and maybe tilt the bar slightly forward when you're playing close to the nut (to compensate for the difference in string height).

As for tone, you could argue that either one could cause better tone or sustain...gauged rollers have more contact with the strings, while non-gauged rollers have slightly more mass. But either way, I highly doubt it affects the tone directly. The material (stainless, brass, or some particular aluminum alloy) may have more effect.

I'd be curious about the effect of the roller axle. Most are very thin...no idea what material they are. Since that transmits resonance between the strings and the neck/cabinet/keyhead, I wonder how a larger diameter axle, or one made out of another metal, would affect the tone and sustain? Though it would probably have to be stainless steel to minimize wear.

Fred Rushing · Post by **Fred Rushing** » 24 Mar 2011 12:20 pm

Keith. It is my understanding that the Emmons Legrande series have guaged rollers. The Push Pulls did not, That is what I was told.

Fred.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 24 Mar 2011 12:26 pm

JMO, but it seems to me gauged rollers should be standard issue. None of my steels have them (Sho-Bud, pre-RP Mullen, Williams 400). For E9th it doesn't make much difference, but on C6th I find that on wide-spread chords near the nut, the middle strings of the chord buzz unless quite a bit of bar pressure is applied, which aside from comfort and ease of playing raises intonation issues.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 24 Mar 2011 12:59 pm

The steels that I build have the gauged rollers in such a way that they also bring the all strings up to the same level.

Storm Rosson · Post by **Storm Rosson** » 24 Mar 2011 1:07 pm

Bent you gotta make me a set when u have time ok? Getting the surface levels even all across is what it's all about imo. Stormy

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 24 Mar 2011 2:06 pm

In my very personal opinion: gauged rollers have zero effect on tone once the strings are dampened behind the bar. Thus, gauging is mainly for evening out the top of the strings so the bar can be slid cleanly over the rollers.

Varying string-angle behind the rollers combined with varying string-type/thickness, lead to slight differences in effective string-length - the part of the string that actually vibrates. Perfect gauging will reduce this difference but not eliminate it entirely - all my PSGs have a small but noticeable "tuning flaw" played in open compared with played with the bar on the strings.

I also regard all sound - harmonics and non-harmonics - that isn't initiated by picking the strings and transferred from the strings to the body at/through the bridge and is returned to the strings through the bridge - and nowhere else, as "unwanted and uncontrollable noise". Body-tone vibrations, good or not so good, should enter the strings in a controlled way for an amplified PSG to sound "pure", IMO, and the bridge is, IMO, the "most controllable entry-point".

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 24 Mar 2011 2:47 pm

Gauged rollers are a good thing for a 12 string.
I have Dons custom rollers on all my PSGs.
The 12 string push pull came with them.
Rollers made out of soft metal do wear out... and you can tell the difference between new gauged rollers and old worn out rollers. Ga ron tee

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 24 Mar 2011 2:59 pm

My Franklin D-10 does not have gauged rollers.

It isn't a problem, however my previous guitar was a 71 PP Emmons D-10 and it too did not have gauged rollers.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 24 Mar 2011 7:00 pm

In 10 string guitars non-gauged rollers can be ok because the "ramp" of the strings is fairly even with the exception of the 1st 2 strings on an E9. The problem becomes significant when playing a 12 string universal near the nut as there are times that the downward bar pressure required to keep the 7th string from buzzing can be hard enough to cause tuning issues and gauged rollers do away with this problem.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 24 Mar 2011 7:32 pm

Jim Palenscar wrote:In 10 string guitars non-gauged rollers can be ok because the "ramp" of the strings is fairly even with the exception of the 1st 2 strings on an E9.

In the C6th string set I use,

.068-.054-.042-.036-.030-.024-.022-.018-.014-.017,

the "ramp" drops .032" from horizontal across the lowest four strings, from string 10 to string 7, then levels out to, for example, a .014" drop from horizontal across the next four-string span, from string 7 to string 4. I find that difference is enough to lead to strings in the middle of the bar buzzing without significant down pressure when the bar is across strings 10-4 near the nut.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 24 Mar 2011 7:38 pm

don't play there

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 24 Mar 2011 7:42 pm

Georg Sørtun · Post by **Georg Sørtun** » 25 Mar 2011 12:14 am

With string sizes from 1 to 10 in the vicinity of...
.013 - .015 - .0115 - .014 - .017 - .020 - .042 - .030 - .056 - .036
...gauged rollers is a must at both ends on my favorite PSG. Got an extra set of bridge and nut rollers if I ever change my mind on tuning and string sizes.

As for nut rollers effect on tone: I have partly isolated the nut roller mount from the soundboard to reduce the influx of body-vibrations to the strings through this point. This helps in getting purer, more dominant, fundamental tones, with more harmonic and less non-harmonic over/under-tones and noise for amplification.

Ray McCarthy · Post by **Ray McCarthy** » 25 Mar 2011 1:34 am

Derby--guaged. I assumed all psgs had guaged rollers to keep the tops of the strings at the same hight. Guess not.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 25 Mar 2011 1:42 am

The roller grooves on my Fessenden S12 and Mullen S10 are not guaged. My Carter D10 rollers are guaged. I get a little buzzing on string 7 as previously mentioned on the Fessenden when playing close to the nut sometimes, but otherwise, no issues on any of them.

Clete

John Peay · Post by **John Peay** » 25 Mar 2011 5:17 am

Ray McCarthy wrote:Derby--guaged. I assumed all psgs had guaged rollers to keep the tops of the strings at the same hight. Guess not.

My rebuilt Derby is gauged as well. First fret still requires a bit more bar pressure to prevent buzzing but hey, I've only been playing 4 months so I buzz everywhere!

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 25 Mar 2011 9:02 am

i wonder if mooney's and hughey's first steels had them? you wouldn't think they'd become anybody at all without them.

i think it's a small insignificant item. however, what jim says about the u12 situation makes sense.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 25 Mar 2011 10:01 am

Ken Metcalf wrote:Gauged rollers are a good thing for a 12 string.

Jim Palenscar wrote:In 10 string guitars non-gauged rollers can be ok because the "ramp" of the strings is fairly even with the exception of the 1st 2 strings on an E9. The problem becomes significant when playing a 12 string universal near the nut as there are times that the downward bar pressure required to keep the 7th string from buzzing can be hard enough to cause tuning issues and gauged rollers do away with this problem.

chris ivey wrote:i think it's a small insignificant item. however, what jim says about the u12 situation makes sense.

What am I missing? Why would the problem (such as it is) be only with U-12? What is it about the U-12 that presents a different situation from the 10-string C6? Isn't the usual low string on U-12 either a B or Bb with a string gauge not much different from the low C on C6, with the rest of the strings graduating in gauge in a similar manner as well?

chris ivey wrote:i wonder if mooney's and hughey's first steels had them? you wouldn't think they'd become anybody at all without them.

Right! Improvements to the instrument are for wusses!

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 25 Mar 2011 10:51 am

My guitar with the guaged rollers sounds better, and sustains better than my guitars without gauged rollers. I don't know if that is part of the reason. Seems reasonable to assume the hardness of the metal where the strings pull over metal would have an effect on vibration. Softer metal--like brass-- would not vibrate as much as a very hard metal like stainless steel. The duration of vibration is what helps with sustain.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 25 Mar 2011 12:00 pm

...on the other hand, perhaps a softer metal vibrates in a more soulful, wider wave form manner, creating a more beautiful artistic sound.
space age improvements may be nice from a mechanical perspective, but if this related to artistic performance, you'd think there would be more creativity and expression making it's mark. 'old school' was a good school. improvements should be beneficial. you would think this would enable thousands of newer great players to come forth, overshadowing the hundreds of previous players of note. but i don't see it yet.

(from my book 'philanthropy, philosophy, filafels and philodendrons')

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 25 Mar 2011 12:39 pm

I use 2024 aluminum when I make them for a customer which, to my ears, is preferable to brass or steel~ your mileage may vary.