Pick blocking vs palm blocking

Dave McKeough · Post by **Dave McKeough** » 18 Jan 2011 7:40 pm

I am very comfortable with pick blocking...it's the same technique employed in classical guitar and bass playing. I suppose I palm block when playing 6 string guitar....but not to the extent needed to play a fast/clean single note line on pedal steel.

Questions....do I NEED to practice/learn palm blocking? Are there people who just palm block or pick block alone?

I'm new to the instrument...I'm sure I'd find the answers to these questions eventually....but, if you could share your knowledge/opinions...I'd be grateful. Thanks.

Dave

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 18 Jan 2011 9:32 pm

I'm in the process of learning (nearly a year) - it appears you'll want both techniques, for best results. I'm a long time guitar player as well - pick blocking is way easier for me, but there are times where you'll need the palm...

Have fun - this is a truly great instrument!

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 19 Jan 2011 12:04 am

using both techniques are recommended Christopher
blocking or muting w: your left thumb is also handy

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 19 Jan 2011 12:46 am

I've never heard of Buddy Emmons or Lloyd Green or Tommy White pick-blocking; although I bet they could if they wanted to. In the videos I've seen of John Hughey he was palm blocking exclusively. I'm sure there have been a lot of top pros through the years that only palm-blocked.

Palm blocking was the gold standard until Paul Franklin came to Nashville. (Others may have pick-blocked before him, but he really was the game changer.) Now there's two gold standards.

In videos I can see Jay Dee Maness using both techniques all in the same song. That's what I'm shooting for, but I'm struggling to play something more than just cheap licks using pick-blocking. I know it can be done, just not by me.

I believe that most players will find a noticeable difference in the sound between the two techniques. You can play somewhat faster single note licks with pick-blocking; but some amazingly fast single note passages have been played by skilled palm-blockers. Most players find their notes are more distinct, and thus their playing is somewhat cleaner, with palm-blocking. But then PF plays as clean as anyone. I just don't know how he does it!!

I suggest you learn both techniques. But don't beat yourself up if you find one easier, and simply don't have the energy or time to take on both challenges at once.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 19 Jan 2011 5:09 am

I use both techniques most of the time in most songs. Palm blocking really excels in adding definition to C6 chords and multi string grips. I found it very tiring to my right hand when I used palm blocking all the time.

Just for kicks, I did this web page playing the same riffs with both palm and pick blocking:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Blocking/Blocking.html

And a short palm and pick blocking primer:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Palm%20Block ... Block.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Pick%20Block ... Block.html

Greg

Mark Dershaw · Post by **Mark Dershaw** » 19 Jan 2011 6:56 am

I learned how to palm block a long time ago. I like the clean definition of the notes when speed picking. But... I've never achieved that real fast speed. I've tried to obtain that really fast speed by pick blocking. Not much luck so far. It's hard when you've been doing something the same way for so long.

Dave McKeough · Post by **Dave McKeough** » 19 Jan 2011 11:48 am

Thanks guys....your comments help...gets me on the right track....both palm and pick it is!

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 19 Jan 2011 2:28 pm

I think its entirely possible that a LOT of you are pick blocking sub-consciously...

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 19 Jan 2011 2:56 pm

I learned palm blocking years ago from Winnie Winston/Bill Keith's book, but am now doing some pick blocking. Certain phrases make sense to me, pick blocking, but how do I pick block this.

String 5,4,3,2. If I start with my thumb on string 5, and then block with my thumb when my finger plays string 4, what do I use to pick string 3 and block string 4? Is it a three finger picking pattern?
Thanks for any help on this...Jerry

Dave McKeough · Post by **Dave McKeough** » 19 Jan 2011 4:13 pm

It never occured to me that everyone doesn't pick block...Like Mickey said, I bet everyone does a bit. Even the side of your thumb will help in blocking...I couldn't imagine playing my 6 string electric without using the side of my thumb to block lower strings. Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts on this folks.

Dave

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 19 Jan 2011 5:25 pm

When I started playing steel guitar I palm blocked, but I didn't even think about it; it was just the natural way to play, for me. Later on I started to pick block, but I had to actually learn how to do that; it didn't come naturally. So now I use both methods.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 19 Jan 2011 6:20 pm

I've been palm blocking since the early 70s. It was not easy to learn, but that was a long time ago. It's only been very recently that I began to try to use pick-blocking at all. I can say without hesitation that there is absolutely no sub-conscious component of pick-blocking in my playing. For me, pick-blocking takes a lot of mental focus. It is a very deliberate action when I use it.

When I try to pick-block I have to hold my hand up in what feels like a very unnatural position and fight the urge to dampen strings with the heel of my hand. It feels really odd to put my picks back down on ringing strings, particularly the index finger.

I'm putting in about an hour a day exclusively pick-blocking, and things are getting better, but pick-blocking is not natural for me at all.

At this point in my progress with pick-blocking I can play flurries of high speed notes, but my licks tend to be repetitively and pattern based, not particularly musical. I can play much more sophisticated licks, with a lot more clarity using palm-blocking. Plus, there is a real difference in tone between the two techniques. Hopefully with more practice my pick-blocking will improve.

My hand tires quickly when I pick-block. But when I palm-block, I can play for about two hours straight with virtually no hand fatigue.

One can play their entire career, and be quite successful from a musical standpoint, exclusively using palm-blocking or pick-blocking. If I had to choose only one technique, my choice would be palm-blocking. I just like the way it sounds better.

But it's not an either/or situation. Take advantage of both. Do what works best for you.

Quentin Hickey · Post by **Quentin Hickey** » 19 Jan 2011 7:13 pm

Hi Dave, as a new pedal steel guy (7months), I can tell you that I immediately found pick blocking was easier for me and I've been playing guitar for about 10 years. Pick blocking just feels more comfortable. Once I caught on and got over the learning hump it felt like Ive been doing it for ever. I think I palm mute a little bit too but I am constantly trying new things.
Thanks to people like Mickey Adams and Greg Cutshaw (among others) for the learning material they put out.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 Jan 2011 7:28 pm

We tend to get over-analytical sometimes.
The techniques should not override the outcome. Each note should sound for a given length of time. The better you are able to control the length of each note the more precise your playing will become. When a note should die, mute it with whatever works best for you. If it works, it works. Let your ear be the test.

Believe me, people who play for a living don't really even think about that stuff. It will eventually become second nature to you if you are picky enough and you keep working on whatever techniques do the job for you. If you have to think about blocking on the bandstand you won't have much time to think about what notes to play.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 19 Jan 2011 8:28 pm

I use both and don't even think about it. I believe that sometimes I will play the same part of a song with palm blocking one time and the pick block the next. It's second nature to me, or as Mickey said "subconscious" (or in my case, UNCONSCIOUS).

Funny thing though, when I first started learning in the early '70's, I used to pick block almost all the time. Everyone including Jeff Newman said that is not the proper way to block, so I unlearned it. Then, with the super fast players like Jernigan, Crawford, Franklin, etc..., it was suddenly OK to pick block. Had to relearn.

Also, don't forget the blocking techniques of the left hand, like tipping the bar up to only contact the string you are currently playing, using the thumb to block low strings...

Dave McKeough · Post by **Dave McKeough** » 19 Jan 2011 10:01 pm

I agree with you Larry. Whatever works is great. I'm playing with a thumb pick and 3 finger picks....I know it's not the standard but it just feels too weird not to use my ring finger. So, I'll let my right hand do what feels normal and try to make music.

dave

Eldon Cangas · Post by **Eldon Cangas** » 20 Jan 2011 2:01 am

Interesting thread. It's not an easy thing to do but I've ben trying to concentrate on pick blocking. One of my problems tends to be the use of 3 finger picks making it difficult to bring my palm around for blocking. I play C6 & I like big chords whenever I can use them. Any suggestions??
Thanks!

Mickey Adams · Post by **Mickey Adams** » 20 Jan 2011 7:13 am

I seem to recall paul Franklin posting a very lengthy post on this subject that was very informative....

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 20 Jan 2011 7:52 am

a good exercise for pick blocking is running scales up & down
in a cycle of 4th or 5th
i usually start my practice session w: that
in a way Mickey might be right about block picking subconsciously but when you get down to learning it properly it's not that easy at first since you have to mute right after you pick
i have found it does come naturally when doing scales

try running a C major scale from the first tone (root) up to the 7th & the 8 octave
up first & back down on each :

example at 80 bpm :
http://www.youtube.com/user/SteelGuitar ... 33EfWkILTk

1°---Cmaj7
1
2----------------------------------8
3
4---------------------------------------8
5------------------------8---8A
6-------------8---8B
7--------8
8---8

2°---D minor7
1--------------------------------------8
2-----------------------------8
3
4----------------------------------8
5-------------------8---8A
6--------8---8B
7---8

3°---E minor7
1--------------------------------------8
2----------------------------8
3-------------------------------------------8
4---------------------------------8
5----------------8----8A
6---8----8B

4°---F maj7
1---------------------------------8
2---------------------8
3----------------------------------------8---8B
4---------------------------8
5---------8----8A
6---8B

5°---G dom7
1
2----------------------------------------------15D
3
4------------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------------15----15A
6----------------15----15B
7---------15
8---15

6°---A minor7
1----------------------------------------------------------15
2-----------------------------------------15D
3
4--------------------------------------------------15
5--------------------------15----15A
6----------15----15B
7---15

7° ---B minor b5
1-------------------------------------------------15
2---------------------------------15D
3----------------------------------------------------------15
4------------------------------------------15
5------------------15----15A
6---15----15B

1°---C maj7

1----------------------------------------15
2-------------------------15D
3-----------------------------------------------15----15B
4----------------------------------15
5------------15---15A
6---15B

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 20 Jan 2011 9:18 am

Hey CrowBear -- would you describe how you pick block each note in those exercises -- especially the ascending sections? I always find myself more-or-less palm blocking going up and pick- or left-hand blocking the descending parts. Do you do this with a metronome? What settings do you 'max out' at? Just curious.

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 20 Jan 2011 9:36 am

I'm also interested in how the pick blocking occurs in CrowBear's examples. Pick blocking on two adjacent strings is easy to figure out, but when a third strng enters the picture I'm uncertain how to block...Jerry

Dale Rivard · Post by **Dale Rivard** » 20 Jan 2011 9:48 am

I will make an attempt to answer J Fletchers question. Jerry, yes, for me it is a 3 finger picking pattern. In fact everything I try to play, I think about in group patterns of 3. I would think about playing the sequence of strings you mention(5,4,3,2) 2 different ways. First I start with my thumb on 5, index on 4, and middle on 3. Immediately after I play the 5th string with my thumb, I would move my thumb and fingers up 1 string grouping. That is, now my thumb is on string 4, my index on 3, and my middle on 2. I play so my thumb and finger picks are set deep into the strings. The back of the thumb pick or thumb itself will block the 5th string. Now I play the 4th string with my thumb, put the thumb back down to block. Play the 3rd string with my index and use either my index or my thumb to block. I normally use my thumb here, because it is easier for me and sounds a little better. Then I play the 2nd string with my middle finger and block with the same. Another way I would do this: start off the same way, thumb on 5, index on 4 and middle on 3. Play 5 with thumb, then block with thumb. Play 4 with index, then block with thumb or index. Play 3 with middle then move up 1 string grouping. By doing this, I can block the 3rd string with my thumb or index and my middle finger is now on string 2. Play that string, then put the pick back on to mute. When I first started learning this technique, I had to plan out everything that I played. (fingering wise) Now after 25 years it is starting to feel natural.

I am not sure how Paul Franklin or others would approach this, but it seems to work for me. Whenever I learn something new, be it single note lines or 3 string chord patterns, I think about it in terms of string groupings of 3. I then use the fingering that is most easiest and sounds the best. Jerry, I hope you can get something out of this. Sorry for the confusion. I hope you are doing well. Dale

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 20 Jan 2011 10:34 am

Thanks Dale for your detailed response, that takes the mystery out of it. I would really have to work at that, I'm strictly two fingers unless it's a roll or a chord...Jerry

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 20 Jan 2011 11:25 am

CrowBear: How are you playing the 4th and 6th intervals of the first scale? Are you trying to pick those notes, or are you just using the pedal action from the previously picked notes? If you are picking them, what's your fingering for the whole scale? Thanks. Paul

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 20 Jan 2011 12:16 pm

Dale's got it : it is a 3 finger picking pattern

basically, if you look at each group, 6 strings are being picked
which for me is thumb, index, major on the 1st 3 strings & the same 3 fingers on the next 3 strings
where pedals are engaged : the preceding note is picked & the pedal does the next note
thumb on lowest note - major on highest & index in the middle

yes i do use a metro-gnome

but not all time either
sometimes i just run 'em up & down or just up or down

What settings do you 'max out' at ?
metro-gnome

?
140 bpm w: 1 bar picked - 1 bar rest - 1 bar picked - i bar rest & so on
i have'nt managed to get past that man

you guys got me blushing cause i'm not a crack at this but i do enjoy workin' on it
the rule i learned here from pick blocking is that you're always dug in the strings
no palm blocking just a steady rollin motion w: the picks & the intervals(?) when the pedals bring the notes