Mike Nesmith and The Monkees

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 22 Sep 2010 7:05 am

Hey I like "Sugar Sugar". It's a great AM Radio tune. Wilson Pickett has a cover of it too. Who wrote "Mary Mary"? Nesmith? Butterfield covered that one on his second album. A lot of music I used to hate, I like now. Moon River by Andy Williams is terrific! Time changes everything..Jerry

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 22 Sep 2010 7:28 am

"Sugar,Sugar" is a terrible song but not as terrible as "Yummy......."
The Monkees weren't bubblegum.

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 22 Sep 2010 7:58 am

Hey! Sugar Sugar by The Archies is a great record, that's why it still gets regular airplay on my local oldies station. Might not be a great song, but it's a great record. But there's no accounting for my taste. I just like what I like!
I can certainly understand why some would hate it though.
I was at a garage sale in the summer and found three desert island discs. "Sugar Sugar", "Kung Fu Fighting" and "High Heel Sneakers". Best 30 cents I've spent in a long time...Jerry

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 22 Sep 2010 2:47 pm

When I think about it, it sounds like a perfect fit for Davey Jones voice double tracked.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 22 Sep 2010 4:20 pm

Are you saying that Mike Nesmith could have written something as good as Sugar Sugar if only he hadn't been held back by the oppressive terms of his rapacious contract?

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 27 Sep 2010 8:25 am

Ernest, 'er ya go! Couldn't have put it any better.

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 27 Sep 2010 10:41 am

Earnest Bovine wrote:Are you saying that Mike Nesmith could have written something as good as Sugar Sugar if only he hadn't been held back by the oppressive terms of his rapacious contract?

Was that comment pro or con Monkees

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 27 Sep 2010 12:31 pm

Earnest, thats not fair. Rapacious is a $10.00 word, and I'm a 50 cent steel guitar player. I stutter and it takes me 5 minutes to say it. My time is valuable.

Owen Barnes · Post by **Owen Barnes** » 27 Sep 2010 4:21 pm

From what I've been told by locals who said they went to High School with "Nes", he didn't need the money anyway. He went to school in San Antonio, TX and the locals told me his mom actually invented "white out" (in typewriter days) and had the patent on it. From the "typewriter" days, the secretaries I used to work with made his mom rich!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 27 Sep 2010 6:37 pm

Thats true Owen. It was in the documentery.

scott murray · Post by **scott murray** » 28 Sep 2010 3:55 pm

Hooray for Mike Nesmith... a trailblazer with talent and vision. He was the most musical member of the band, and of course he was looking to get his foot in the door like anyone else trying to get their songs heard.

He used the Monkees as a platform for his own career, and when it got too silly he told them where to stick it. If only more manufactured boy bands had that element.

He's one of the founding fathers of country rock, and did some great stuff with pedal steel way back when. One of my heroes.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 28 Sep 2010 6:27 pm

Scott Murray...

I'm on your side. Absolutely.

Who wouldn't do what he did, if they had any brains? Obviously he did.

Mike saw the "light" early-on.

'Her Name Was Joanne' - what a great song. Red Rhodes on steel on this one, too .

You can't DISS or ever put down MIKE NESMITH.

Anyway, why would you want to?

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 28 Sep 2010 11:09 pm

J Fletcher wrote:Hey! Sugar Sugar by The Archies is a great record.

A few years back I stumbled across a YouTube video clip of Ron Dante and Toni Wine singing Sugar Sugar on a TV show, and I thought I could remember reading that it was the only time the two had ever performed the song on TV together.

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 28 Sep 2010 11:56 pm

On the subject of The Monkees'draconian contract terms, a friend of mine told me a story once.
He had just lost his recording contract after two reasonably successful (now cult classic) albums and a disastrous US tour. He was in a pub drowning his sorrows when he met Mike Nesmith. They knew each other slightly, so they got talking.
My friend told his tale, and Mike's reply was something like,
"You are lucky- you've still got your music. They'll sue me if I even sing in the bath for the next five years."
I'm on the side of Mike Nesmith in this!
Cheers
Dave

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 29 Sep 2010 1:17 am

Joachim Kettner wrote:Not quite. Peter Tork was also a musician before he joined, playing guitar and banjo in the Greenwich village folk scene.

I saw Peter Tork at the Troubadour, about a year before he got the Monkees gig, opening for of all people, Muddy Waters He was VERY good. I remember that he played some flamenco on a 5 string banjo.

He was hired as a solo act, but he brought legendary guitarist Steve Mann to accompany him. Steve played for free because he wanted to see Muddy Waters. They played for a week, and I went to see them every night. (I wanted to see Muddy too.)

It was a very good week.
____________________________

Nesmith and the other guys wrestled control of the band from Kirshner after the second album and produced their third album, "headquarters," themselves. This is the one where they DID play their own instruments, and among the credits appear the words: "Michael Nesmith, Pedal steel guitar."

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 29 Sep 2010 6:52 am

This is why I started this thread. I was interested in opinions. The artist verses business. I come down on the side of business. If Don Kirshner pitched me "Sugar, sugar" my response would have been "What time do you want me in the studio Mr. Kirshner?, and how do you want it sung?". I would never sign a contract and then !@@$% about artistic control. It was a manufactured project right from the beginning, clearly spelled out. They were hired as actors/singers. Kirshner was a hit maker with a big track record. The Monkees record sales fell by 50% after his departure.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 29 Sep 2010 7:31 am

Well, if Nesmith hadn't been through the system, he might never had produced "Pacific Steel Company", which is actually a pretty cool steel anthology with some great moments.
Here's a rather unkind review, (but I still like it!)
http://www.answers.com/topic/pacific-steel-co

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 29 Sep 2010 9:26 am

i'm just glad artistic integrity has taken over now, in the era of lipsynching strippers.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 29 Sep 2010 10:03 am

My two cents:
I concur with those who think that Nez (Michael Nesmith) used the Monkees as a 'launch vehicle' for his own career. That was probably Tork's motive, too.

In the late 1960's, the pop music scene was evolving at a rapid pace. Many aspiring songwriters and musicians were making their way to either New York City or Los Angeles to make their 'fortune'. Most existed on very little income and couch-surfed with friends until their 'big break' came along. Very likely, that was the situation with Michael Nesmith and fellow Monkees auditionees Steven Stills and Peter Tork. In fact, about the time of the Monkees auditions, Steven Stills enticed his musical partner, Richie Furay to come to L.A. Soon after, The Buffalo Springfield was a reality.

As for Nesmith's attitude towards the 'corporate music' situation that the Monkees were created out of, I think he was very wise to protect his interests (his songs). Most music business 'bean counters' and promoters were and are in it for themselves. And if means taking advantage of unsuspecting talent through manipulating contracts, these unscrupulous hacks usually don't have any reservations. Anyone familiar with his songwriting will agree that Nez-penned tunes are very unique and way more sophisticated than most of the pop songs written for the Monkees' TV shows and albums. IMO, Michael Nesmith's songwriting is on par with other great rock and folk song writers of the 60's (Dylan, McCartney-Lennon, etc.). Check the lyrics to "The Crippled Lion", "Propinquity", or "Harmony Constant", among others, for example. All are lyrically very poetic, and melodically very pleasing. Anyone who can use the words 'didactic' and 'trepidation' ("Roll With The Flow") in a song, while making it meaningful and interesting, is OK in my book. Also, regarding Nez's songwriting, he was most certainly in the vanguard of country rock performer/song writers.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 29 Sep 2010 2:17 pm

I'm a fan!

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 29 Sep 2010 9:09 pm

Kevin Hatton wrote:This is why I started this thread. I was interested in opinions. The artist verses business.

I gave up the pursuit of stardom when I was 21. I became painfully aware of the business aspect of music, and if I 'made it' I would have ended up playing music I didn't like.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 29 Sep 2010 9:33 pm

Kevin Hatton wrote:This is why I started this thread. I was interested in opinions. The artist verses business. I come down on the side of business. If Don Kirshner pitched me "Sugar, sugar" my response would have been "What time do you want me in the studio Mr. Kirshner?, and how do you want it sung?". I would never sign a contract and then !@@$% about artistic control. It was a manufactured project right from the beginning, clearly spelled out. They were hired as actors/singers. Kirshner was a hit maker with a big track record. The Monkees record sales fell by 50% after his departure.

It may not have been Kirshner's departure that hurt them, but instead the fickle nature of 10-13 year old audiences. Every generation has had its meteoric stars--in fact, that's what the creep who managed New Kids and Backstreet Boys, etc. banked on. How many can remember Bobby Sherman or the Ohio Express? These acts were aimed squarely at the same market and for whatever reasons missed. It's a big gamble with your career because if you're a serious musician, you will will forever be stigmatized. That cute crap wears off after a while (and the money definitely runs out).

Joachim Kettner · Post by **Joachim Kettner** » 30 Sep 2010 12:25 am

Jeff Barry, co- writer of 'Sugar, Sugar' in a 1970 Hit Parader interview, defended his song:
"I could write the heavy type of song which is drivel for the most part, off the top of my head. Believe me 'Sugar, Sugar' was just as difficult to write as these songs that talk about hazes and trips and that kind of thing. And as for a message: 'Sugar, Sugar' said something. It was a simple love song. In movies, records or whatever, the nice good non- offensive material will always be commercial...
If music was more like "Sugar, Sugar" the world would be a more peaceful place."

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 30 Sep 2010 6:54 am

Good for Jeff Barry. Still can't stand the song, have yet to adopt a "revisionist viewpoint" of the thing, and don't expect that i will anytime soon.

Barry co-wrote with Spector some amazing songs, so his career is etched in stone. Among them are "Be My Baby" and "River Deep, Mountain High" but IMO "Sugar Sugar" was not one of his finer moments.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Sep 2010 12:48 pm

Mike, thats a good point about temporary genearational success. Yet, many, many groups continue to tour and make big money off their glory days. The Monkees are one of them, without Mike Nezmith. The Temptations also. There have been so personnel changes in the Temptations that the last time I saw them they were white.