12 string players: To D or not to D (universal vs ext E9)

[Pete Burak]

I asked what Famous Player, and what Famous Song.
fwiw, I don't think anyone thinks of Act Naturally as a Famous "9th-string=D" song.
No disrespect intended, David.

[Mike Merz]

Hey Mike, I play a 12 string universal. I love the rhythm guitar on the bottom 5 strings without the D note witch I get from a knee lever on my 9th string.The only problem I have is on single note runs. The step and a half pull is a long one and my left knee is slow!Of course that note is available in other places.

[Zane King]

Hey Paul, hope your enjoying your beautiful Labor Day! At least you are if you are here in Nashville today.

Very well stated here my friend. I compare the tuning choices to buying a new car. It all depends on your needs, taste, and desire. There's also one more choice that has developed and that is the Robert Randolph, Chuck Campbell/Sacred Steel movement. Those are obviously viable as well.

Just to show you how open my mind is to all of this subject matter, my Dad is setting up a 10 string C6 tuning guitar for me right now. I've never had one. I spoke to Doug Jernigan about setting down with me once I have it. He only lives about 2 miles from me so I'd be insane not to do that.

There's a post on somewhere on your C6 setup. I'd LOVE and I know others would too, to see your current C6 setup. If you know where to point us to a posting of that it would be terrific.

Muchas Gracias,
ZK

[Jim Smith]

I'm just a novice on the history of steel guitar players and what they are known for. For what it's worth I know Tom for "Together Again". I view the lowering of the 5th string from B to Bb as coming from Tom. Likely someone else will point something contrary to that but in mind that's a Tom Brumley move for me. So please don't spoil it for me!

FYI, Tom didn't have that change when he recorded "Together Again". He did it by raising his G# to A and moving back one fret. In later years, I did see him lower his B to A# for that lick, when he played it as an instrumental.

[Pete Burak]

I know everything Paul has discussed about playing chords/scales/modes in the register containing the open D string on standard E9th is correct.
Thanks, Paul.

If chord intervals and playing scales and modes in that register is the deciding D-string factor, I would suggest anyone thinking of going to a tuning without the open D down there to take a look at Joe Wrights book called: 'The Ultimate E9/B6 Scale Book'.
Joes says of the scales he covers... "Major, minor, dominant seventh, lydian augmented, phrygian and diminished are just a few."

Maybe we can complile a critical mass of links to "D string" required listening.

[Jerry Overstreet]

...Having to pull it up on a lever every time seems like a lot of trouble to me.

Why would it be any more trouble than pressing any other pedal or lever?

Because I consider it a part of my open tuning...I use it that much. It would be nearly the same as having to raise the 4th string from Eb to E every time I needed it, plus the tone and a half pull is a long way to go and too slow to move in and out of in a hurry. That is why I stated that it depends on the player and how you use the change. Whatever works for you.

Paul's scale explanation covers it more knowledgeably and eloquently than I could.

[Barry Hyman]

Those of us with different tunings and/or copedants are sort of comparing apples to oranges here, but I sure love my open D on the ninth string. I guess I use it most when I'm playing blues or country blues bass lines, sort of like rockabilly guitar or the left hand in boogie-woogie piano. I love that seventh (or ninth) chord on the thickest strings: E, G#, B, D, E, F#. Plus the knee lever that lowers the D to C# and makes it a sixth chord...

I also love to play a triad on strings 8, 6, and 5, and then add a seventh underneath with the 9th string. It can be like playing bass and guitar at the same time...

I also use it a lot melodically, as Paul has said. It doesn't belong in the "first position" major scale (there is no D in the key of E major) so it was a chronic source of mistakes for me when I first started playing steel, and I too wondered why they put that darned ninth string on there. But then I started to realize that it does belong in just about every other scale, as Paul said.

Another bluesy usage for the D ninth string is when you use the 10th string (B in open position) as the root. With the knee lever that lowers the E strings to D#, the ninth string adds a great blue note to the B6 chord.

I have posted before on The Forum about chords that use the ninth string as the root. The only ones I have learned well enough to use often are the major seventh (A and B pedals depressed; strings 9, 7, 6, and 5) and the ninth voicing (A and B depressed, add the knee lever that lowers the B strings to Bb, and play strings 9, 7, 6, 5, and 4).

I don't know anything about famous players or famous songs. But I do know that there's a lot of fun you can have with a D string. (I also am sure that there's a lot of fun you can have without one. That's the miracle of pedal steel -- you can do whatever you want with it! Fun, fun, fun!!!)

[Pete Burak]

Agreed on the Funn Stuff factor!

Seriously though...
What songs show the D-string being used in the way Paul says it's needed for?
Is there a song with a fast single note Lydian scale that utilizes the 9th string D?
Is there a song where the melody couldn't be played without an open D?

It pencils out, but if there are no practicle uses, maybe that mechanical real-estate can be better utilized?

I'm guessing that's what respected instructors like Jeff Newman, Joe Wright, and Maurice Anderson where thinking when they switched string 9 from being an open D that maybe lowers to C#, to an open B that can be raised/lowered and individually tuned to D, C#, C, B, and Bb.

So yeah, I don't disagree with the theory for the 10 string E9th open D.
'Just looking for links to songs that show it's critically important to have an open D in your E9th tuning, and more particular, songs that use the open D string in a manner that cannot be duplicated on S12U.
Any links?

[Franklin]

Pete,

With all due respect to everyone you named....You did not mention the players that never abandoned the D string from the 9th tuning: Day, Chalker, Cox, Green, Beavers, Emmons, White, Reid, Crisp, Rugg, Hughey, Myrick, Hicks, Crawford, Rusty Young, Mike Smith, Mike Johnson, Jernigan, Wallace, Overby,.......Is your point? the three player/teachers on your list somehow know more about finding the most musical options in a tuning than these guys?

I know Jeff agreed that the missing D was the problem to solve within all of the universal concepts. In order to copy, exactly, the fast scale choices the E9th offers, it does require an additional D string......He believed, chord wise, the D note on a lever worked good enough.........

My Christmas CD has fast examples of improvisations using some of those scales with the D string. Jingle Bells and We Wish You A Merry Christmas are two that come to mind........If anyone wants to put a sound clip of these songs, they have my blessing......

Paul

[mike nolan]

I play S-10 E9 guitars for the most part... I have D-10s that rarely go out. I also have one U-12 that sees a lot of action. I use it for a couple of projects that I'm involved in that require big ambient chords and slow droning bass notes.... usually through a pile of effects.
I think of the U-12 like I think about a baritone guitar in the 6 string world. I have played 6 string for 46 years. I own a several 6 string guitars.... they are like tools. There are times when a Les Paul is the right tool, other times I go for a Telecaster, sometimes a baritone guitar or a high string guitar. I wouldn't pull out a bari as a first choice for shredding......
Not having the open 9th string would be a real handicap for me in certain musical situations.... so, then, the S-10 E9 is the right tool. In the above mentioned ambient projects, the open 9th is actually a bit of a problem.... so, for me, the Uni is a better tool than an extended E9.
I know that some of you will say that I should just take out the D-10, but I really like single neck guitars, and I like the sound of B6 more than I like C6.

[Brad Malone]

Ok after reading all the posts..I have decided that the only smart way to get the low G# back is to go to an 11 string steel....I guess Tom Brumley and Norm Hamlet had the right idea way back in 1975. Thanks to everyone for the great insights on this very important subject

[Daniel Ibanez]

I came to this post thirsty, further to having read many several others, searching for a answer to this thread subject.
I am impressed with all the considerations and explanations by everyone, and mainly the very good points by Paul Franklin.
Since I consider myself an amateur (in order to check, understand and digest these points) what I did is to go through the entire book "Anthology of Pedal Steel Guitar" (more than 150 pages, not all with musical notation/tablature) and see where the 9th D string is played. I found out that this string is probably the less used by far. And also, when used in a chord wise manner (typical 7th) I can imagine it can be easily obtained with a knee lever; however, when used on a scale context, I can imagine it is not feasible a fast scale without it. So I can imagine the more complex scales (which I heard) mentioned by Paul Franklin on his Christmas CD.
So, IMHO the definite answer is the one provided by Tonny Glassman on his post above (and some others). His copedent, thanks to his lock lever function, is the only one which makes possible the perfect blend between E9th and B6, keeping the original tunings.
And I fail to understand why this has not been adopted as a standard...

[bob drawbaugh]

I know everything Paul has discussed about playing chords/scales/modes in the register containing the open D string on standard E9th is correct.
Thanks, Paul.

If chord intervals and playing scales and modes in that register is the deciding D-string factor, I would suggest anyone thinking of going to a tuning without the open D down there to take a look at Joe Wrights book called: 'The Ultimate E9/B6 Scale Book'.
Joes says of the scales he covers... "Major, minor, dominant seventh, lydian augmented, phrygian and diminished are just a few."

Maybe we can complile a critical mass of links to "D string" required listening.

Here's one for the list. The intro to this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIHD4bkU ... re=related

[Tony Glassman]

In my case, I don't know if I want to be without that dedicated D string. I use it all the time for a 7th too. Having to pull it up on a lever every time seems like a lot of trouble to me.

Tony, I'm interested to see how this works out for you.

Jerry, It's working perfectly......I like it so well, that I traded off my Zum D-10 for another Zum U-12, and just installed that same tuning w/ the 4-string lock lever.

[Rick Schmidt]

I just re-read this resurrected thread, so I thought I'd add a little more to the mix for consideration regarding the D string on E9.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the fact that there's a slew of root based minor chords, from the 10th string up....if the 9th string is a D.

At the open fret you have:

B minor: strings 10-9-7
Bmin6: 10-9-7-6
Bmin7: 10-9-7-6 (with B pedal)
Bmin9: 10-9-7-6-5 (with B+C pedals)
Bmin11: 10-9-8-6 (with B pedal)

Of course these are also great for single note playing! Here's a link with more thoughts about that:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 756e8a96c8

For the record,(IMO)I think the U12 E9/B6 is a Great tuning!...but I personally think if you only play the E9 side of it, you're selling yourself short and might only playing a limited E9 with low notes. So hold in that E lever and move you left foot to the right!!!

oh yeah...one more thing...you can't technically call it E9 playing without the D.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

....there's a slew of root based minor chords, from the 10th string up....if the 9th string is a D.

At the open fret you have:

B minor: strings 10-9-7
Bmin6: 10-9-7-6
Bmin7: 10-9-7-6 (with B pedal)
Bmin9: 10-9-7-6-5 (with B+C pedals)
Bmin11: 10-9-8-6 (with B pedal)

Rick, all these chords except the last are available on a Universal if you drop the 8th string to D (as I do.) Your B note on string 10 is on string 9 on my tuning. So to get the B minor, instead of using strings 10, 9, and 7, I play 9, 8(lowered) and 7. And of course, the chords that use strings 5 and 6 can also be played.

The only things that can't be done on my setup are chords and scale passages that require the use of both the 7th and 9th strings (Like the B minor 11, or the diminished chord that uses both the 9th string and the 8th raised to F.)

Never having had a separate D string, I admit that I don't know what I'm missing. But I love having that low B string (which I lower a whole step with the A pedal) and I would miss it if I had to give it up.

[John Polstra]

But I love having that low B string (which I lower a whole step with the A pedal) and I would miss it if I had to give it up.

Mike, what made you (and others) decide to lower the 12th string to A instead of raising it to C# as is done with the other B strings? To me, that low B sounds flabby enough without lowering it any further.

John

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

John, The low A is the root of the A chord.

I have posted this clip a gazillion times before, and I apologize to everybody who is already tired of seeing it, but it shows how I use the Low A note at the end of my ride, to great dramatic effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSnoeTWR4I

BTW my inspiration for this is Curly Chalker's ride on "Summertime" on the Giants of Swing album, and an amazing run that Reece played on the song "He's coming Back' on his Universal Direction record.

[John Polstra]

John, The low A is the root of the A chord.

OK . . . I can see how it makes more sense to have the root way down low like that, rather than the 3rd of the chord. Making that string sing so low still seems kind of gimmicky to me, though. (I feel the same way about the boo-wah pedal.)

I DO like your steel break on that video!

John

[Jerry Overstreet]

In my case, I don't know if I want to be without that dedicated D string. I use it all the time for a 7th too. Having to pull it up on a lever every time seems like a lot of trouble to me.

Tony, I'm interested to see how this works out for you.

Jerry, It's working perfectly......I like it so well, that I traded off my Zum D-10 for another Zum U-12, and just installed that same tuning w/ the 4-string lock lever.

Thanks for the update Tony. I had big plans to do this with a Sierra, but economics and circumstances dictated I sell it. Maybe someday down the road, I'll have an opportunity to reconsider the tuning.

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

Theoretically (I hope that's a word) couldn't the missing D string be compensated for in fast scale work by simply using bar movement or using another position such as moving the bar back two frets where in the scale the 7th string would be the root such as in A you'd go to the 3rd fret, the dominant 7th would be on the 8th string and the 6th string would be the 9th or II of the scale. I don't know if I'm making sense here but I know that knee levers aren't "fast" but bar movement is.

Another thing would be using the B6th more with the E's lowered on a Uni. Your 6th and 10th strings would be the 6th of the scale and just adding your "B" pedal would give you the dom7 that the D string on E9 gives you and pedal action is fast and easy to use. I know that the C6th players don't have a Bb note tuned into their tuning and it doesn't hinder their scale work does it?...JMHO.....JH in Va.

[John Russell]

Dominant 7 chords are like salsa on scrambled eggs--it's hard to do too much. Fast runs using the 7th tone can be very fresh and exciting sounding on any instrument especially in country, blues and rock.

I'd never dispute the wisdom of the great players Paul mentioned, nor Paul. What works for someone isn't essential for someone else. I know D-10 players believe they have the most versatile setup and I won't say they're wrong. I tried to adapt to the D string on my first 10-string pedal steel years ago. It seemed like a nuisance to me so I took it off and moved the B up and added an E. I used that setup for about 20 years. I guess all those years playing guitar made me feel the need for the low E but I never could get the hang of that D note.

When I switched to the 12-string universal about 20 yrs. later, it was pretty easy, I now had another G# and a low B.

There are several ways to get a dominant 7 chord most of you all know. Some of my favorites:

1) I raise my middle F# to G for a dominant 7 chord with pedals A and B engaged. I raise that note via LKV.

2) Lowering the middle E to D, is a nice effect in and sounds good pedaling down to. I lower that with my 6th pedal so it's a bit of a dance to jump over to pedal 6 when you're engaging pedals A and B frequently and I can see adding that change on a knee lever but I have 5 knee levers and that's enough for me, I'm not eager to add one more.

3) I get a dominant 7 interval with pedals A and B engaged picking strings 4 and 5 sliding up three frets. It's a really quick riff I use all the time in both country and blues songs--easy and fast.

4) With Es lowered in B6 mode, raising G# to A with pedal B. This change kind of typifies the versatility of the universal tuning.

The only time I miss the D on string 9 is playing boogie-woogie riffs on the low strings but I just raise B with my first pedal and slide up one fret. The slide effect is rather bluesy. I know this doesn't help folks playing fast runs in open position. I figure pedal steel evolved from lap steel with lots of bar movement so it seems appropriate to grab notes with the bar. Slurred notes, especially 7th tones are essential to modern pop music. It explains why you hear so much slide guitar these days instead of pedal steel.

[Chip Fossa]

When I first started on an S-10, I bought a Herby Wallace E9 course.

I play a basic standard U-12 [with no open D, but on my RKR, which runs string 2 (D#/Eb), my
9th (B) string is also raised to D.

This was never a real problem, until one day when I went back to Herby's early course.

Trying to play "The Memphis Vamp", now, on my U-12 was a real challenge. I broke that knee years ago trying to keep up with the band. It's ridiculous. Plus, in my case, the lever was on the VP side. Very difficult, in the heat of battle.

As we always come to realize, here, it's a trade-off.

Here's the "Memphis Vamp" - Run #8:

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

Chip, playing a U-12 and getting the "Memphis Vamp" is very easy if you have a raise to F# on your 11th string. It's best to put that raise on your C pedal. That way you can hold that pedal down and rock on/off of your B pedal which using the 12th string B for the root. Example: Memphis vamp in E you'd just go to the 5th fret using those bottom three strings like this......

Pick the 11th and 12th strings together twice on the beat (while the 11th string is raised a whole tone with the C or appropriate pedal).....

Pick the 10th and 12th strings together twice...

Pick the 10th and 12th strings together twice with the B pedal depressed, you can actually "slur" it in on the first of this part.

Pick the 10th and 12th strings together with the B pedal released.........

Then repeat everything until you change chords then move to the appropriate fret. Remember to keep the C pedal engaged throughout the whole thing.

If you don't have the raise on the 11th string and want to try this out, just tune that string to F# and then use your B pedal. On my old ShoBud U-12 I used a Keith/Scruggs banjo tuner with the stops to tune that string to F# when needed and at one point also had one on the low B to drop it to A.....JH in Va.

[Chip Fossa]

Thanks Jerry,

Those changes you mentioned never occurred to me. That's great. I'll have to see if I can move a rod around to make that 11th string change.

Your moves certainly would make it much easier than to keep hitting the RKR.

Much appreciated info.