Chromatic, Diatonic, Zane Beck Tuning

[Zane King]

I recently read some of the post on E9 Chromatic Tuning here on the Forum. I've posted a lot of stuff lately and all of this has really energized my thinking for the instrument and its progression. I googled E9 Chromatic Tuning because first of all I didn't think it existed. I say that sarcastically but yet in my mind which is basically limited to 12 notes (at least in this part of the world) I know the "Chromatic" for a steel guitar is a misnomer. Oh trust me, I get that we get close but being a keyboardist myself I promise you I've tried every conceivable way to do chromatic scales on steel like I can piano. And what about those dadgum violin players? Those chromatics are off the richter scale or something. Let's just say I have chromatic envy.

I recall when I first entered Berklee and I had my steel setup with a bunch of kids who had enormous talent. This fellow who like 17 years old and making a saxophone do things that I'd only heard on recordings was next to me. I took several solos and later he said so why does that instrument (he did not know what I was playing) only produce diatonic notes. Oouch! Now as most people know in jazz and classical music the chromatic scale is King. I read a post here that spoke about Buddy Emmon's pursuit of this because at heart he was a jazz musician. All of this to say, that we are still early in the development of our instrument. Do we really comprehend that? Look up the banjo and just see how that little 5 string as involved. If it took that long to get a drum head with strings stretched across it to where it is today then I think we still have some time left for this string stretcher to evolve.

Another point here is that I'm realizing I would like to share more concrete information to those interested in pursuing a tuning setup close to mine (close is good enough...for now). There's no better way to learn than to teach. I'm very much in a learning mode as I hope most of you are. Stay there. Many years ago just as a kid I put instructional books together for E9 tuning yet I was not able to share even 1/3 of the knowledge I had even then. There's much more that I can contribute to the world of steel guitar if we can get past one basic hurdle. Mmm...what's that hurdle? The steel guitar itself. Well, it's only about 3 foot high so most of us should be able to clear that, right?

Yes, when (not if) I can assemble enough folks that either are already playing a base tuning like Zane Beck's or are just willing to adopt it long enough for me to really give you the needed information and direction then I think we might create progress. My real purpose is to see folks much more talented than myself come along and take what I know (and others for that matter) and promote this instrument in ways that I can yet imagine. I truly believe this in my heart that maybe like 100 years from now we honestly may see this steel guitar (if that's what it is still called) right along any ensemble in the world. And man, I'd love to see some of those 6 and 7 year old youngsters that do things on pianos and violins that just puzzle the mind be doing equally incredible things on a steel guitar. I'm just not convinced we are yet even close to what our beloved instrument could become and the places it may go.

I also read in that article here on the Forum that Emmons once was in pursuit of a single tuning. Trust me when I say this...take a child 10 years (I have two 11 year olds so I know what I'm talking about here). "Daddy, I want to learn an instrument?" Okay, dear here's one called a piano. You just take your hands like this and hit the keys...see there you can do this!". That's too easy, Daddy I want to do something harder. Okay, dear here is a guitar put your fingers on these notes...see there that is a G chord. Daddy, I still want something harder...well, okay then...here's something we call the steel guitar. You have 20 strings, 9 pedals, and 6 knee levers. This is divided up into two schools of thought both what we call a C6 tuning and a E9 Chromatic Tuning. Yeah, Daddy that's what I want to learn...teach me that." Yes I know, I'm being disrespectful here! Surely, you get my point. We have made this so difficult. There's not a guitar or piano on the planet that I can not play (well not that I play them good or anything) and yet at the same time there's only ONE steel guitar this side of heaven that I can play...that's the one over on the other side of the room I'm in right now.

I want you all to know I'm dead serious about all of this. One my greatest moments in life happened when I was just a kid. Faye Beck (Zane Beck's widow) asked me to give an acceptance speech on behalf of his family when he was inducted into the Steel Guitar Hall of Fame. What a honor! I get chilled even now thinking about it. That's amongst the reasons why I've found a place in my career to now explore and expand all I know about steel guitars. I've been amazingly blessed to be a part of the Christian music community for some time. So, I'm excited about moving forward and if we can just get past a few hurdles and get some commonality with setups I think I can help with many instructional elements. Hopefully, I can achieve a lasting and meaningful contribution.

[David Ball]

Zane, I appreciate what you're saying and certainly believe that there is a place in the steel guitar world for the ultimate goal that you envision. But at the same time, I don't think that the steel guitar has to evolve into the chromatic instrument in order to have a valid place in the world of music. There is no shame in diatonic (I don't mean to say that you're implying that there is), and I believe that a lot of style in playing evolves from living within the limitations of an instrument.

I'm a rank amateur at steel guitar, but I've played banjo professionally (let's keep the banjo jokes to a minimum here!), and I was also a classically trained bassoonist, played sax, cello, etc. Even theremin, but that's another story altogether. At any rate, I have a solid background in chromatic music, though I don't claim to be at Berklee standards! My family is musical for as far back as I can trace, and my dad was a music professor until he retired. He also played jazz piano professionally. These days, he plays diatonic accordion.

I grew up around a lot of early music, among other styles. Diatonic, modal music has always intrigued me. That's probably one of the things that drew me to the banjo. It's not jazz, which I also love, but it's still great music.

The banjo actually has evolved somewhat over the years, but in all honesty I don't think that even with some of the very progressive players of today that the five stringer ever became any more musical or sophisticated than it was when Fred Van Eps was playing in the early 20th century. Or Harry Reser on four stringed instruments. So much for my token banjo defense!

Anyway, to me some of the inherent limitations of any instrument are also in large part what gives the instrument its character. I think that any truly chromatic instrument runs the risk of becoming another piano wannabe and potentially losing the uniqueness that led people to want to play it in the first place. In the right hands, this ceases to be a factor, but it is worth considering.

Great music is great music, and I think that your point is that the steel guitar can and should evolve into a tool that opens more opportunities for great musicians. I agree. But I think that coming at it from a totally different direction, a great musician can take the limitations of the instrument and exploit those to create a style that players of other instruments could only emulate. Putting a box around things offers an opportunity to think outside the box.

Please pardon the rambling. My main point is that while I agree with what you are saying, at the same time I would hate to see the steel guitar evolve into a truly chromatic instrument at the expense of providing a medium for a unique style that differentiates it from the crowd. I post this only to encourage discussion, not to be critical!

Dave

[Zane King]

Thanks David! For just taking the time to read my thoughts as well. First off, I was not trying to make a banjo joke...I have one sitting here that drives me crazy so it's my own personal battle that the banjo and I continue. I sure could use a teacher! I am a recent bluegrass convert too and believe me I LOVE the banjo. My point was just to say that it has evolved into a fairly consistent structure. Which is why the likes of Bela Fleck have come along and done incredible things with it. It's not that those things are better or even new standards but just greater depth. So clarification #1 from above is that I actually think steel guitars would progress further if we had a bit more cohesive tunings and setups. Just my opinion. You were right I'm not suggesting whatsoever that steel guitar should be a chromatic instrument. It's simply that in my experience it is definitely not a chromatic instrument and that seems to be something worth clarifying in the long term.

Now I'm also a new owner of lap steel guitars. Love 'em. Can't get enough of those traditional sounds. So what I am saying here is that the steel guitar is a complex instrument at least at this point in it's development. Can we agree that the lap steel and pedal steel are two different instruments? Similar yes. Connected yes. So is the dobro which we clearly see that as a different instrument.

Another point I want to clarify is in my years of studying my particular setup I have found it prohibitive to share instructional material with steel guitarist. Mostly because so many use E9/C6. I like those tunings just fine and many have perfected it to a degree. However, I no longer feel prohibited and it was probably my problem personally all along. I understand now that what I can offer is options. No need to for competition or anything like that. Simply put, I want to offer my approach and experience to the steel both musically and educationally for the purpose of driving the love of it constantly forward.

I do envision a day when our instrument can become known even on a broader scale. I play shows across the country and recently I started asking the audience if they knew what my steel guitar was by show of hands...always about a 1/3. That's what I mean by evolving and acceptance. It's reasonable to say that the "pedal steel guitar" is still young. I only submit some of these ideas (and the FORUM is a great place) to keep us moving onward and outward. Respectfully submitted, Zane.

[David Ball]

I agree. I think that your point of lap steel and pedal steel as two different, if related, instruments sums it up. Since the steel guitar was born, players have sought different approaches to expanding the instrument. First it was new tunings, that evolved into multiple necks, and pedals came along as additions that started the process over again. What it expanded into, and could expand into in the future, really is a different instrument.

The same thing happened with banjos--if you look at what was happening during the latter part of the 19th century, you'll see all kinds of sometimes bizarre instruments with as many strings as modern steel guitars have!

Anyway, I'm with you. The steel guitar really is an amazing instrument, but one that, again like the banjo, is probably known more in the public by cliches than it is for what it truly is. (I hope I don't get kicked off the forum for using "banjo" three times in one post!). Offering an alternative, along with the instructional materials that could help someone take that alternative and run with it, is a great service!


Dave

[Zane King]

Hey Dave...reread my above post...I was in too big of a hurry earlier when I typed it and didn't proof it. I just read your last comment..very cool. Yeah, we need the bumper sticker that says something like...Pedal faster...I hear banjo music! That would work nice for "steel" music too.

[Joe Babb]

Okay guys, I'm going to stir the pot a little here 'cause you've lost me in this discussion of chromatic vs diatonic. You must be discussing something other than what I think of when using those terms. Every note, and then some, that is available on my wife's piano is available on her S10 and my D10. Now, I don't have the creds that you guys do, but I'm looking in Sharon's music theory text book which says "Triads, chords, scale passages, and other note groupings using only notes of the scale are known as diatonic". I understand that and I understand why some instruments like the squeeze box I have is called a diatonic harmonica. But I do not understand why you say a steel guitar is not called a chromatic instrument. You can play in church mode if you like, just like you can on a piano. But you don't have to do that.
I also understand about tuning, and I tune pianos using a Peterson strobe tuner with all the stretches and we tune our steels using the Strobo flip and I understand about the sweeteners. I've always said that with the equal tempered scale you can play equally badly in any key. You're never really in tune.
So can you recast your discussion of chromatic vs diatonic so I can understand? I truly would like to clear up my confusion.

[Zane King]

Joe - admittedly my post rambled somewhat but what was challenging to me when beginning to play with jazz ensembles was making my notes comparable to solos from sax, piano, guitar, etc. that had notes swirling around at 90 miles an hour. I arrived pretty quickly at running alternative scales against the primary chord as to create that "mood" of a chromatic sound. But never really achieving a real chromatic run. The reason for this is the steel guitar is dominantly a diatonic instrument. The 6 string electric guitar is closer to a chromatic instrument (or at least you can get closer positioning of those scales) than a steel guitar and yet we don't call a electric guitar tuning chromatic guitar. So my basic "pointing a finger" comment was to say that E9 Chromatic tuning is slightly misleading. Being a piano tuner yourself you certainly realize this easily. The five black keys in the key of C are the chromatic notes by definition. When applying that same concept to the Key of E..the chromatic notes are F,G,A#,C,D. It's arguable I suppose since some E9 tunings do have the "D" note in the open tuning to say it's chromatical. NOT! If it was open tuning chromatical then it should have them ALL! So you put 1/5 of something into a recipe...does that make it that ingredient? I guess sometimes it does.

I LOVE your comment about "church mode" on piano. We have that choice too every time we set behind a steel even though we have "mostly" diatonic positions in our hands. When the piano is under your hands you literally have "chromatic notes" flying in your face. I hope I have brought a little more clarity on the chromatic vs. diatonic argument. At the end of the day, it certainly doesn't matter what you call it just play it!

You are also on to something there about not ever being in "tune" with our equal tempered scales. You should expound on that because that is yet another area where steelers have to really understand. Fortunately, we have developed good skills with the bar and we can shimmy that until something sounds right! I imagine there are still a good number of players though that really don't get that tuning dilemma.

[Jesse Leite]

This is a very interesting thread going guys! Joe, as far as a pedal steel being chromatic... yes all 12 notes are there, but since we have to use a straight bar I think the tuning (E9 anyway) caters to diatonic chords and scales. Like Zane said, with a few small modifications it could become a more versatile instrument chromatically.

However, I find instruments like harmonicas and banjos fascinating! Look at the harmonica for example. Sure it is a diatonic instrument, but guys like Howard Levy and Jason Ricci are using plain old diatonic harmonicas with bends and overblows to get their chromatic notes. I think* it's even possible to play a full chromatic scale on a diatonic harp with bends and overblows! Go to this website and listen: http://www.levyland.com/ ...Howard Levy makes that little diatonic harp sound like a sax!

Anyway, I myself prefer to stick with E9 as I think it is very well laid out! If I can't even play well within the diatonic scale, then I shouldn't be touching all those other chromatic notes! That would be a mess!

[Bill Hatcher]

Zane. You went to berklee...and used the steel for your instrument??? very interesting....as far as using another tuning and even remotely trying to interest others here in it..dont count on too much serious interest, maybe just a bit of interest as an oddity. The pedal guitar is mired in the E9 tuning and that is ok..most here play country on it so hearing all the "majory" sounding stuff is the norm for them. Most do not have much skill in improv over diminished or augmented or any other kind of altered chords. They think the C6 neck is some kind of harmonically frightening thing to be avoided...like the 6th tonality is something new instead of decades old sounding as it is.

There was a time when some steel guitarist, both non pedal and the early pedal players had very interesting and very personal tunings that gave them a more personal sound within what they were trying to express harmonically. As soon as they pretty much all went with the same tunings..you start to hear many of the same licks and tonal things and less adventurous playing.

So if you are hearing other things in your head to play and you are finding the E9 tuning is a hinderance to you realizing those things, then you are pretty much on your own with what you do tuning wise. If you like to fish by yourself...you will be just fine!

I personally love different tunings and the experimentation of using them. I have been working on combining some different tunings for the non pedal guitar. I have a tuning that i use for non pedal that mixes the best of the Leavitt tuning (Bill Leavitt was once the chief guy for the guitar at Berklee) which has a diminshed chord in it and also mixing in the Byrd Diatonic and the Alkire tuning. Having no pedals is tough to get a nice chromatic thing going so having some things to pick from really helps out. You know Donna Lee from Berklee...here is an mp3 on non pedal 12 string with just a ticky drum pattern and a bass. "Odd" non standard tunings are a lot of fun and let you get sounds that the standard tunings sometimes dont aid you in getting.

http://www.mediafire.com/?0hwcxqzcygm

If you want to gig on the steel in country...E9 is it. But if you are looking for some other tonal things and you want to stick with the E9 tuning then you need some other pulls and more knees and pedals pulling other things to get you away from the standard E9 pitfalls that make the majority of E9 pedal guitar players all sound very alike.

[b0b]

If you have any doubts about how odd our tunings are, try playing 'Chopsticks' on E9th. Here's a simple tune that most children can play with two fingers on the piano, and yet it takes some serious thought to play it on our instrument.

This was one of the driving forces behind my diatonic tuning experiments. See http://b0b.com/tunings/fscale10.htm. It uses the same concept as a pedal harp: you have a diatonic scale tuning and the pedals raise and lower by half-steps to get all of the other diatonic scales.

The main problem is that it's hard to play "normal" pedal steel music on it.

[Larry Bell]

try playing 'Chopsticks' on E9th

Am I missing something here? Seems pretty easy to me.

[Zane King]

Jesse - good material on the E9. Love it.

Bill - don't sell these folks to short here. Pretty challenging discussions here and there. Yes, I went to Berklee. Got a scholarship because of steel playing. Piano, however, was my required instrument to study.

Tuning oddities are just a beginning of the equation here as we continue to develop this instrument. I was taught from a very early age to dance to the beat of a different drummer. Literally, the second song Zane Beck taught me was "Girl From Ipanema". "Jesus Loves Me" was the first. Get the picture. Then a great instructor at Berklee told me to learn everything I could, study, study, practice, then he said, okay now forget everything you know, quit thinking, and just play!

I will press on because I think we are at a day when sharing information and ideas are at a premium. Plus, I'm not looking at changing the world of steel guitar here...just my little corner of it. With great respect for all of you that "steel" for fun and for a living!!!

[b0b]

try playing 'Chopsticks' on E9th

Am I missing something here? Seems pretty easy to me.

Quite a bit harder than on a piano, though. That's my point.

(BTW, it's usually in C, not G. So it should be at the 8th fret or on different strings at the 3rd fret.)

[David Ball]

And that gets me back to my point of potentially creating another "piano wannabe." The piano really does do what it does very well, and for western music anyway it would be hard to beat a keyboard for access to all of the chromatic scale at the same time.

The fact that it isn't easy, or sometimes even possible, to play something on an instrument that might be easy on a different instrument can lead to workarounds that may well define the character of an instrument. The banjo is definitely that way--on a five string banjo, there are things that are very difficult if not impossible to play note for note. But the alternative approach that a player develops to play a given tune helps create the "banjo sound." I think it's the same way with the steel.

I really appreciate the fact that some players who are far more accomplished musicians than I am experiment to find ways of getting the notes that they hear in their heads out of their instruments. I wish I had some of those notes in my head too! But taken too far in some directions, I think that the steel could become just another source of notes and lose a lot of its unique character. That's OK too, but that might be the point where it has become a different instrument.

Dave

[David Ball]

But I also believe that one of the most unique things about the steel is that it, more than any instrument I can think of, has been deeply rooted in the tradition of evolution from its very start.

Dave

[Reece Anderson]

Zane K……I have enjoyed reading your intuitive and articulate comments.

I can relate to your comments concerning diatonic, chromatic and their musical influence, which brings me to my question.

Since pedals and knee levers on the 9th and 6th tunings provide the option of moving in and out of chromatic and diatonic alignment, are you considering exploring a different tuning, and if so, do you have a tuning in mind?

It’s my opinion the hardest thing to learn is the right hand technique. I have found interesting musical advantages when exploring different tunings, but the additional demand placed on the accuracy and speed of the right hand proved them to be counter productive, at least for me………

I believe steel guitar has secured a place in music which is attributed to the inherent sound which creates it's unique musical voice, thereby providing a distinction from all other instruments.

Continued conversation and experimentation helps insure the evolutionary process moves forward as rapidly as possible.

[Don Drummer]

IMHO the E neck makes playing a chromatic passage easier to do than the C neck. I've been working on this for a year and find starting on the 3rd string B pedal and descending to be the best way to start. The re-entrant strings give you the advantage of executing a chromatic line. It also helps to include one whole step in your practice routine. I find myself going from the 3rd string to the 1st. Half step pulls and lowers are there to make it easier as well. Don D

[Scott Swartz]

I am not a jazzer (I mainly think in terms of pentatonics from my guitar days), but I understand that many jazzers think in terms of modes, ie play a C Dorian (same notes as Bb major, two flats)over Cm7.

If I can play a Bb major scale at fret 6 on E9 using A and B pedals, I can play in C Dorian over a Cm7 chord, correct?

There are other altered scales I believe that jazzers use (whole tone and lots of others), but if the modes are already present in E9 and changes are added to get the altered scales you want to use, would that be "chromatic" enough? If we want to apply jazz theory to E9 what changes are missing?

One other thing I was thinking about... In Guitar Player magazine a few months back there was an article about Pat Martino's system of relative diminished and augmented chords. Basically, if you take a diminished chord (G, Bb, C#, E) and lower any one of the notes it creates 4 different Dom7 chords, and similarly the augmented triad morphs by changing one of the voices. He has a complete soloing concept around this, I don't fully understand it, but when I read that, I was wondering about how that might apply to pedal steel, where its easy to move one note in a group.


BTW Zane thank you thank you thank you for posting something other than a "look at my shiny new steel" thread.

[Mitch Daniels]

Zane,
Good stuff. I play ZB's D13th tuning that I bought from him in 1965. Carry on!

[Mitch Daniels]

I intended to say, "it was on the guitar that I bought from him." Where is that edit button?

[Jesse Leite]

If I can play a Bb major scale at fret 6 on E9 using A and B pedals, I can play in C Dorian over a Cm7 chord, correct?

There are other altered scales I believe that jazzers use (whole tone and lots of others), but if the modes are already present in E9 and changes are added to get the altered scales you want to use, would that be "chromatic" enough? If we want to apply jazz theory to E9 what changes are missing?

That makes a lot of sense to me. I remember my guitar teachers drilling me on my modes, but I never thought of applying it to E9! Maybe that's because I also rely too heavily on the pentatonic scales. Anyway, I guess playing modes on E9 would be pretty easy then! Thanks!

[Joe Babb]

Well, I guess I'm still a little confused about the terminology of chromatic vs diatonic. You guys are using the terms in a very specific way but that's okay. I just happen to be interested in different tunings for what sort of feel you can get from them. I think you are concentrating on having the 12 notes of the chromatic scale available in the basic open tuning. That's fine. But it doesn't follow that the instrument itself is diatonic if you don't.
Technically I still argue that all the notes are available in most any basic tuning as long as you allow me to press a pedal, engage a lever, or slant the bar. In fact we have notes that are in between the "standard" set of 12. It is true that on the piano you can create flavors of chordal harmonies that are limited only by the size of your hands and length of your arms. A person can create many flavors of harmonies on the steel guitar only limited by the number of strings, pedals, levers, length of bar, and number of fingers you use on your pick hand. On the piano a person can play country, jazz, blues, classical. One can do that on the steel as well and I've heard it done in tunings that you wouldn't expect could handle it. It's all in the hands and the feelings of the player eventually. It ain't no thing if it ain't got the swing, etc.
Please don't take all this the wrong way. I love the discussion in this thread. I was just making sure I wasn't missing some basic point.
Tuning, no matter what instrument, is a ticklish subject. I find I am still learning every day. If anyone is interested in the theory of how the equal temperament came to be, try to find a copy of "Piano Tuning and Allied Arts" by William White. It's an old book and probably out of print but it may be available used through Amazon.

[Sonny Jenkins]

My thoughts on this chromatic, diatonic or whatever ??? I think PSG evolved to pretty much a standard of 2 necks of 10 strings each, a 6th based sound associated with swing, pop, or jazz,,,and a 9th based sound associated with country. Then the uni came along, combining the 2 sounds and found a somewhat limited acceptance. Most uni players still see that tuning as 2 separate necks, but I've heard at least 2 well known uni players state that it should be seen as 1 neck and 1 tuning (Jeff Newman and Joe Wright). I myself use the Newman tuning, 100%, Day set up and the exact same pulls that Jeff used, by chance not intention. While I don't devote near as much time to PSG as I used to,,,I am starting to see it as one tuning,,,and I wonder,,,is the difference in the 2 separate tunings notes,,,,or timing/feel? I mean, a piano is not 2 separate tunings and it is equally suited for country, swing or ????,,,and in that respect I think Zane's tuning is more versatile and complete, while utilizing the least amount of size, weight, pedals, knee levers etc. The most bang for the buck. I hope to get a chance to try it.

On a different note,,,,a lot of the uni players remember that a few months ago I offered a chord chart that I converted from Trap Truly's C6 chart to a B6 chart. I was amazed at the people requesting a copy,,,maybe a hundred or more??? I also converted Buddy Emmons "Playing in the Pockets" charts to B6 and sent those along with Trap's. I wish I had the ability,,,or time,,,or inspiration, to do something along those lines with Zane's tuning,,,maybe someone with more skill or knowledge than I have will do that,,,,I think it would go a long ways in clarifying Zane's tuning.

[Sonny Jenkins]

Just re-read my post above and realized how much "rambling" around I did,,,,guess I'd best just shut up 'til I figure our what I'm trying to say,,,,LOL

[Jesse Leite]

Jesse - good material on the E9. Love it.

Thanks!

Sonny what you are saying about C6 being more for the jazz/swing, etc... one can still play jazz & swing on the E9 neck right? I've been told that with my LKR (Lower E's) and my LKV (Lower B's to Bb's) that I should be able to play some nice swing. I have not put this into practice though, so I can't say first hand.