Zane King on Zane Beck Tuning - First Thoughts

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Zane King
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Zane King on Zane Beck Tuning - First Thoughts

Post by Zane King »

Again thanks for the interest in Zane Beck's tuning copedant. I thought it best to start this thread in this section. Now just like pro golfers only get like 13 clubs for a round, steel players get like 5 strings to play a song! Seriously, I have produced 100s of CDs in Nashville and if you try to use more than 5 strings you are in jeopardy of a Music Row citation. :D That said, my recent years have been spent pursuing mostly what is known as the E9 sound. I'm still not sure exactly what than means sometimes but we all have our guess I suppose. I'm going to approach this in a few segments just so these threads are easy to read. Here is my first thought and the most significant change from the original ZB tuning.
String #8 - original tuned to D. I now tune to E.
Yes, I know there will be those that will argue the D position and what this does to the tuning from a theory standpoint but here is what I do...(again thinking from the E9 "sound".
I lower my 8th string to Eb. I raise to F. Obviously, this gives me exactly what E9 players have on grip 8, 6 and 5. I also then lower this string to a D. This, of course gives me the dominant 7th I need. Plus it creates some very nice "slurs" and "movements" that are not on the traditional E9.
You may ask then what I do with the 9th string. On E9 this is of course a D. Again I get my D on the 8th string with a knee. Therefore, I ignore the 9th string from the E9 and tune my 9th to a B. This is just like your "B" 10 string on E9. This of course allows for an additional string to be used on my 10th string which is a G#. I ask you to now consider that 10th string G# to parallel the 6th string G#. What you get is basically what E9ers refer to as the "Bs" (strings 5 and 10 on E9 tuning). Simply put this is adding yet another grip. As most of you know, E9 tuning as 4 basic chord grips. I have 5.
:D Of course depending on the 5 strings I'm allowed on a recording session..I just have more choices but still only get to use my 5 that I brought to the studio. LOL!
This is just the beginning of what I will attempt as an argument that Zane Beck's tuning is actually the most suited musically and commercially for steel guitar. I might later tackle the more C6 approach but I have yet to see many folks actually make a living from that neck. I said "make a living" not just make money.
I welcome your thoughts and challenges.
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Post by Billy Carr »

Sounds close to the universal E9th/B6th set up. Continue with some more Zane Beck. Thanks.
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Post by Joe Babb »

Zane,
Please write more. I'm afraid I'm a little behind the curve on what Beck's copedant is. But I understand your discussion about the 8th and 9th string. My wife and I have been playing about 6 years and we just last year got a 12 string E9/B6'ish universal. I am interested in the many different ways people tune and set up their copedants. Always looking for something useful.
Joe
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More thoughts...

Post by Zane King »

Billy Carr - yes you are correct that the ZB tuning is comparable to the E9/B6. Certainly, this change that I have made on my tuning from the 8th string tuned to a E rather than a D is an attempt to go toward an E9 sound especially with the 8, 6, 5 grip. I pointed this out as "first" thoughts for those that may be already familiar with the ZB tuning. Since this is the only "change" that I have made other than some additions via 1 pedal and 1 knee. That said, I think as you follow my postings as I continue with the exploration of the ZB tuning and my approach you will see some fairly radical differences between the two schools of thought. Especially, when we start analyzing the tuning of strings 1 thru 4.

Now I'm a 12 string guy regardless! So no matter what you use on your "universal" setup...12 stings is the way to go. I'm an advocate that as we watch the development of this instrument it is more and more necessary to see the emergence of commonality of tunings, setups, etc. This, of course, is an age old argument but just consider that in most of our lifetimes we have seen the invention of the electric guitar (thanks Les Paul). At the same time, the invention of the pedal steel. However, because the steel is one of man's greatest accomplishments it has left us with literally too many choices in order for it to evolve rapidly into the mainstream. Thank goodness we are making progress! All of that said, keep pushing and pulling on those 12 strings! It gives you more than enough options musically and emotionally to engage any style! Just my opinion....I'm sure there is a doublenecker out there who can make a compelling argument too...that's what makes this go forward...bring it!

:)
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ZK Tuning Chart

Post by Zane King »

Probably the best thing I could do is show you my current tuning setup. The items highlighted in blue represent changes from Zane Beck's last setup. He had a few different changes before this but this is very close to what he had. The highlighted items in yellow represent just additions. This was mostly accomplished with the addition of one floor pedal (in the 5th position) and 1 knee lever. I have that currently on the RKR.

I explained earlier why I have chose to go to an E note on the 8th string. This of course has opened up a lot of shall I say commercial styles and certainly this is in line with what many universal setups utilize. So I will not further explain the blue highlighted changes. Later I might post something about this when looking at the tuning from more of a B6/C6 setup. Just a note, I always "think" of the tuning when playing strings 4 thru 12 as a C tuning. More about that later if anyone is interested.

Now as for the additions and why...The 5th pedal started out for two reasons. 1) minor 7 flat 5 chord. (just sounds cool). 2) Tom Brumley's "together again" lick. Lowering that "B" is very effective though for a variety of reasons. Thus that is why you see it on so many E9 setups these days. On that same pedal I have added the 11th string from E to F. I'm not sure that ZB ever did that or not but there are some purposes for it.

Now for the knee lever addition. Of course, when I tune the 8th string to an E it created the need to have a "D" for dominant 7 purposes mostly. So the obvious place for it without effecting something else was a knee. And you also have to use it in combination with pedals so it had to be knee lever. By adding this I also implemented the F# (2nd string)with the whole tone raise (G#). This also has become quite standard amongst E9ers. And with the unusual but practical way I tune my first 4 strings this just opens up a world of possibilities that quite frankly is more than what I can get out of an E9 myself. BTW - I have taught instructional material in E9 tunings so I'm familiar with it inside and out...just my opinion but it is amazingly limited on the top side. I will save some of that argument for later when I do for you a side by side comparison of my setup versus a "Emmons/Franklin/Day" setups.

Feel free to ask many questions at this point. I think the whole point of this approach for Zane Beck was simplification. Which he most likely understood the need for steel guitar to ultimately evolve into a more standardized format. In time we will probably discover that in a 12 string guitar at most. Keep in mind that Zane was a teacher. It would have been his desire to make the instrument accessible (see his student model guitars) and also easily teachable.

More to come...stay tuned.

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Post by Sonny Jenkins »

Is there any teaching material available for this tuning? ,,,or better still,,any comparative material for anyone wanting to change over from E9?
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tuning

Post by Scott Appleton »

Very interesting .. I have an Emmons 12 string 8 & 5
and wonder if any one would venture to advise me if this tuning will work with my steel .. If I can get the
PP to accept all these changes I would like to try it.
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Replying...

Post by Zane King »

THANKS FOR THE INTEREST! It's sure good to find away to connect to people who are interested. This gives me hope that the almost 30 years that I've studied this and the 8 years with Zane Beck is going to be meaningful after all. I have always felt like such an outsider where steel guitars are concerned. I hope I can get folks everywhere to accept some of these concepts.

Scott Appleton - I actually have had two Emmons P/P with this setup. It's not a problem whatsoever. Honestly, it's taking more off of it than adding.

Sonny - I have never manufactured anything for this tuning because of so few people that play it or would attempt it. However, be assured that my only objective in this endeavor is to expand people's thinking about this instrument. I am likely to produce some initial teaching approach to my setup. That said, any lesson type material will first be to take the E9 setup and help you place it all into this setup. That to me makes the most sense. From there then I will explore how you can first expand beyond the E9. Not just with the B6/C6 approach but actually more enhanced movement with the first 10 strings. I may just start with some YouTube lessons first and see how many what to prescribe to that. I'm also interested in one on one teaching. If there is enough interest I may try setting up a day or two day seminar. I've always wanted to do that but trying to teach E9/C6 from my tuning just prohibited that approach. So if we can gather enough folks who want to start with this tuning, or change to this tuning or just give it a shot I will make myself available. Regards, Zane
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Post by Sonny Jenkins »

Whhhoooaaaa,,,now hold on there my friend,,,,"felt like an outsider"????? Man,,,there are a lot of us that have been waiting for you to come on this forum and post some insight into this tuning!!! A lot us us consider you the rightful "heir" to what Zane spent his life promoting!! We welcome anything you care to share,,,,Com'on ,,,keep it coming!!

I remember the early days of TSGA when you and Blake would come over from Arkansas,,,and Steve Palousek from Belton,,,,ya'll were red hot!!

I for one am very anxious to see this tuning applied to the commercial "5 string" nashville stuff,,,and then just let it grow from there! Personally I lean more towards swing that this tuning shines own,,,,but if you work you have to play "nashville".

Anyway,,,we sincerely welcome you to the forum!!!
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

I'll be watching this thread. I started on D-10s but only want one neck. I'm currently playing a S12 Kline E9/B6.

Didn't Zane claim to get all the chords with his tuning and only 4 pedals and knees? Would his tuning be called an E6/9?
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Post by Zane King »

Dave - I never had a chance to set behind a Kline. I'm sure they are very comparable to my BMI keyless guitars. As for "all the chords", yes you can find anything you want on the ZB tuning. The challenge really becomes voicings more than the actual notes. Same thing with electric guitar. You may be playing something like a C9 b5 chord. Likely on electric you have to choose what roots you will keep...for instance you may play a C,F#,Bb,D...thus not playing the 3rd (E). That said, you can find technically any chord you want, but you may have to search or select options for the voicing. Along this topic really in lies the only winnable part of the argument for a double neck E9/C6 player. If both necks were tuned to E...meaning E9/E6 then the world of 12 strings would have won long ago. In researching the movement from Hawaiian lap steel tunings to pedals that seems to be a fairly easy conclusion.

In another post, I eluded to my "mental thought process" of when I play in a C mode. Rather than thinking this business of B6...I simply think C6. My first instrument was piano (had to study this at Berklee as well) so thinking in C rather than B is a bit easier to frame. Of course, I mostly just think numbers and lucky for me I was able to get thru 3rd grade math so I can count all the way to 13. Got it made. :)) We can discuss this later because I will start a different topic when doing a comparison of this tuning against C6. Suffice to say that even with the bar at the first fret (C pocket) it simply does not have the voicing properties that are present on C6. Does this concern me? Not in the least. It's sort of like the difference between playing a Fender Telecaster or a Les Paul. It's still basically the same sound.

To reiterate my point from above, I'm convinced that ZB was attempting to find a solution for the development of the steel guitar. He obviously longed for a day where the steel would be as much a part of a jazz ensemble as the electric guitar. He could certainly see ahead in time that if the steel would ever be considered acceptable beyond it's early roots that it would have to grow to a manageable and teachable structure. That meant in a very precise and well studied manner he made some very small compromises. Some might believe in 12 strings so much to argue that point, but I feel better about yielding a few chord voicings (losing a battle) but gaining a world of steel guitar players (winning the war). Finally, I'm not naive enough to think I'll see this even in my lifetime. However, I am sure that there will be a day where stretching these steel stringed devices will be as universal as say that large instrument with 88 strings or that one with 6 strings or maybe even those 4 stringed ones played with horsehair. We'll get there!
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Post by Joe Babb »

Zane,
Thanks for sharing this stuff with us. Comparing your copedant with our more or less "standard" E9/B6 12 string, it looks like we are kind of similar from strings 5 through 12. We get an extra D on the 9th string by lowering the B with a lever. But where we really differ is in the top 4 strings. You wrote
with the unusual but practical way I tune my first 4 strings this just opens up a world of possibilities
So I am anxious for you to riff on that a bit.
Also, any links to any youtube examples of your playing would be appreciated.
Joe
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Post by Zane King »

Joe,you are correct that strings 5 thru 12 are similar. "riff" is a good word for the top 4 string reference. You should be able to just simply type my name in You Tube search and several videos pop up. Thanks!!!
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Post by Sonny Jenkins »

I'm struck by fact that strings 1-8 are the same as Tom Morrell's E13 non-pedal tuning,,,,and just look at what he did with that,,,AND WITH NO PEDALS!!!!!,,,then the remaining bottom 4 strings on Zane's tuning is simply an E triad,,,,looks like great minds think alike.

Now,,,since most of us don't have that tuning to experiment with, if Zane would just give us some tab of some good commercial stuff that we could visualize those moves,,,,,or maybe demo on youtube,,,,,
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ZB Tuning

Post by Zane King »

Sonny - Oh I know I'm blessed to have been basically an "insider" in the steel guitar community virtually my whole life! What I refer to as an "outsider" is that I've constantly dealt with the reference of my unusual tuning setup. Now I realize that it just gave me an advantage of being unique! Thanks for your kind words and welcome!

Good point on the Morrell tuning. It is true that we have witnessed the evolution of the pedal steel guitar. It will continue to evolve and be refined. As for tablature and YouTube...I am studying now on how to best share my lifetime of knowledge and approach to ZB's Tuning and the instrument. Once I get setup, I may start posting at least a monthly video with instruction and example. Stay tuned!
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Post by Jerry Hayes R.I.P. »

Zane, it's great to see you here on the Forum and adding some much needed insight into your (and Zane Beck's) tuning(s).

I play a form of E9/B6 in that I use basically an extended E9 with the low G# and E on strings eleven and 12. I tune my 2nd and 9th strings to C# and have retained some of the B6th pedals like the one that raises strings 5 and 6 a whole tone each. The one which lowered string 7 and raised strings 11 and 12 is one which I have a form of. On my pedal 5, I lower string 7 a half tone and lower string 12 to C# for the needed root in that chord.

I've wondered something about your setup for a while especially the G# on string one. Since it's a shorter string length than what you'd have if it was in the third position, does that keep the G# string from breaking as much as a it normally does since the string tension would be lessened?

Also I notice that you lowered all three E's to D# on your LKL. It seems that most Uni players like to keep the 11th string E at pitch for some grips using the 8th string lowered a half. Is there a different thought on your end?

All in all, I love what you're doing and I agree with you on the 12 string format. I wish I had another guitar to set up in your tuning as I know it'd be very interesting and there's a lot of good stuff in it........Also, I'm glad you changed the 8th string D to E as it really makes more sense. When you play the E9 things there's something about your playing that's different and subtle probably from the positioning of your first four strings, it's very unique and sounds great. Keep it up, we love it on the Forum.

Finally, about what year did Zane B. come up with his tuning?......Thanks, JH in Va.
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To Jerry:

Post by Zane King »

Jerry,I often wonder if all of us playing 12 strings is Extended E9. So much debate about the various methods of using 12 strings and the E9 as a base tuning. What your playing sounds interesting for sure.

As for the my 1st string G#. Keep in mind that I mostly use keyless guitars therefore the length does not matter. However, I have had my setup on Emmons P/P for quite sometime and I have never had any string breakage problems. Or at least no more than anyone else. I have much too share about the strings 1-4. I will get into some of that later...but real quick just consider if you were learning music theory. The first place you likely would start is setting behind a keyboard. Even a child can see that if you want lower notes you go to the left..higher notes to the right. The scale concept is true of most every instrument except for the darn 5 string banjo. (I've got one and it's crazy fun). Trust me I get the whole E9 concept of F#,Eb,G#,B, etc. But if you were learning piano wouldn't it be strange to have to think of certain notes higher or lower than the natural position of your hand. Mmm. Okay so...I have G#,F#,E,C#,B, etc. Now at some point I'm going to demonstrate every conceivable note chord and note combination from E9 standard to my setup. I promise you there is so very little that you can not perform. Plus what little there might be that would either be difficult or impossible is made up for in the new musical world that opens up right under your palm.

I hear tell that when I was a young kid that folks thought I could play "fast". Yeah, maybe a little but just listen to what I'm doing when you see/hear me playing on strings 5 and above. It all lays so very naturally that indeed it probably sounds faster than what it really is because I'm playing more notes in that area. The argument I hear is that I only have 1 extra note (C# my 4th string). Just consider though that phrasing alone is completely different. There you go! Now you know my secret! I learned a concept many years ago that works...say you are improvising in the key of G. Now, just go to a Dm in your head (and your hands). While the root is surrounding that G...you suddenly are phrasing completely different than you would if you were still in G...but playing essentially the same notes. This of course works in multitudes of ways. IMPORTANT: that's exactly what's happening with my approach...I'm playing the same notes but I have completely different options under my hands from string 5 forward.

As for 11th string question...look at my tuning (and others for that matter) from the 1st fret bar...
String 12 - C
String 11 - E (LKL engaged) not locked!
String 10 - A
String 9 - C
String 8 - E (LKL engaged)not locked!
String 7 - G
String 6 - A
String 5 - C
String 4 - D
String 3 - E (LKL engaged) - not locked!
String 2 - G
String 1 - A

It is just easier for most folks to think with those letters. So straight across this is a C6 (add 9). Now C6ers usually have F on string 9. I have just found on certain things I improvise on that I'm always in this pocket and it's just something I've grown accustomed to.
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Zane's tuning lives on......

Post by Dan Rollans »

Hey Zane, I,m proud to be a fellow Zane Beck student. I only wish I had spent more time with him. He was always avalible to just set and jam. I have also made some changes and additions to the tuning over the years. I have given some thought to changing my 8th string to E from D. It would be just a matter of reversing the way I have played that particular string over the years. I have posted my current set up in the past. I will try to locate that post and repost it. I'm looking forward to more insight on this tuning. Almost evertime I sit behind this tuning, I find something new and interesting. I may not always know what note or chord I have found or how to play it the same way again, but it is always a joy to hear. Thanks again and I hope to see you so. Dan Rollans @ Steelers Choice

Previous post:
Posted 17 Mar 2009 1:18 pm Zane Beck Tuning

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been playing Zane's tuning for 30 years now. I started out on a s10 BMI e9th when I was 15. Zane moved to Little Rock around my 16th birthday and said "Your going to learn this tuning and I will teach you!" So at xmas I recieved a new BMI s12 4p 5K.
I will admit, I was lost for a week or so going from E9 to Zane's setup. But after that, it was a dream to play and still is. I will try to post Zane's tuning.
Str--lkl--lkr--lkv-p1--p2--p3--p4-(p5)-(p6)--rkl--rkr
1-G#------------------A--------A-------------------------
2-F#-------------(G#)---------------------------------------
3-E--Eb--F----------------------F#------------------------
4-C#----------D-------------D--------------------Eb------
5-B---------------------------C#-------------(A)-----------
6-G#----------F#-------A--------A---------(F#)---------
7-F#----(G#)-----F-----------------------------------(E)
8-D--Eb-(F)---------------------------------------E---(C#
9-B---------------------------C#------(C)---(A)-------(A)
10G#--------------------G-------A-----------------------
11E--Eb-----------C#-----------F#---------------------
12B------------------------------------(G#)------------(A)
-----------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
The above is Zane's tuning as played by myself Dan Rollans. The string notes and pedals shown as ( ) are modifications to the tuning that I have made over the years. Zane oringinally had RKR pulling strings as RKL shown in chart, but swapped levers sometime around 1981 or 1982. After the swap Zane used the RKR to raise the 5th string from a B to C and lower strings 9 and 12 from B to Bb.
Last edited by Dan Rollans on 2 Dec 2013 7:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

Image

Here are some basics from the BMI site:
http://www.beckmusicalinstruments.com/ZB-Lessons.html

I would like to try this someday. :D
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Post by Bob Tuttle »

Zane, I've been studying this tuning (on paper) for the past four or five years. I would like to try it, but right now I'm limited to ten strings. If it were set up for ten strings, what bottom strings would you recommend eliminating to still keep most of the integrity of the tuning?
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Post by Rick Winfield »

Zane, I've only played PSG for 4+ years, but I too, have mentally, and on paper, studied Zanes tuning. It always made "more sense" to me to have the 1st 4 strings arranged in Zanes sequence.
These days I find myself with only a 10 string, and any info you can pass on would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
Rick
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Reply to Dan Rollans

Post by Zane King »

Dan - really great to hear your name! Give a big shout out for me there in hogland!

I have always had much respect for your playing. I'd really like to hear more. Always very interested to hear players who use ZB's base tuning. I am most intrigued by what your doing with your RKR. It would seem that is a total addition to the base tuning. Here are couple of my observations regarding this and some comments...

String 2 (F#)-I think it is accepted that this pull either on our tuning or standard E9 is necessary. I could not live without my 1st pedal pulling this to a G though.

Lowering the B to A on string 5 is also interesting. I will try this because I already lower it to a Bb which is fairly common.

I like what you are doing with strings 5-9. I'm going to experiment with some of those additions. All in all it looks like you and I have arrived at some of the most accepted alternatives to ZB's base tuning. I will tell you that I'm having a lot of luck with the 8 string tuned to an E. For what that's worth.
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Post by Dave Zirbel »

Zane,

Do you ever play your modified ZB tuning without the pedals?

I tried Sneaky Pete's B6 tuning and one of the attractions is a world of music on the tuning without pedals.

Thanks
Dave
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To Rick and Bob,

Post by Zane King »

Looks like you fellows are in the same boat with 10 string guitars. PERFECT! No worries on that at all. To give you more of an idea exactly what to do on changing your setup it will be helpful for me to know what you have now. However, I will make a few assumptions and give you some advice here so others might follow along as well.

First off, let's assume that you are 10 string single neck player for a reason. Your taste most likely falls somewhere between Greene and Hughey land. We all like that regardless don't we? That said, elimination of strings 11 and 12 is simple enough. Gone! Maybe they are nothing more than a good hand rest anyway until you just want to make the bass player in the band mad! :D :D

Secondly, we are going to assume that you have 3 pedals and 4 knees. That's a common setup and I'm sure many out there who have access to this Forum are in that camp. Now above you can see my current copedant. Now, we are just going to eliminate the vertical. Gone! Really not a problem but that whole tone lower on string 6 (G# to F#) is common so that's about all you lose there. Also just kick off pedals 1 and 5. Lowering the B a half step is nice for E9thy stuff but not critical.

Okay so now we have just 3 pedals. From my copedant, I'm also going to you have eliminate RKRR. Gone. Don't worry about it.

So now your setup looks like this...

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WOW! That's a little simpler looking isn't it? Before all of those jazz/swing minor flat 9 fans out there thinks that I'm committing steel guitar blasphemy just consider how many greats made amazing music history with less than this! So breath in and breath out..it's okay!

I can honestly say that if I spent the next 20 years doing sessions everyday I would easily spend 90% or more of my time on this part of the setup. That's just a reality. In maybe a separate topic we might discuss some more comparisons on this and the standard E9 setups. It's very important for those of you that are and will change to this base tuning to have some guidance. I can and will help. That said, it will be better for me to design a copedant for you based on what you have now in the way of a guitar and also what you are currently used to in the way of pedal arrangements. Most of the time I can make this change fairly minimal for you so that you don't have to relearn something as simple as the "Day" vs. "Emmons" setup, etc.

Hope this helps.
Last edited by Zane King on 22 Jun 2010 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com
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Zane King
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To Dave...

Post by Zane King »

Dave - I can totally play for hours without touching pedals or knees. I do like however if you are challenging me to do that to at least be able to retune the strings manually from song to song.

You sound very interested. You should give this a shot. You seem very knowledgeable about the instrument.
Zane King
Email: zaneking@me.com