Instructional material prices

[Ben Jones]

i wanted to add, that what amazes me today is the amount of steel instruction, in any style you desire, that is out there - most if not all self published.
back when i started dabbling in steel in the early 90's, pre-internet, you had your choice of just 2-3 methods by the large publishing co's (yeah, i found out later about others, but unless you were subscribing to the steel newsletters you didnt know about them)
in summary, we are so lucky now - AND - the good thing is that most of all the proceeds go DIRECT to the musician. in a way, i dont feel bad about paying $10-$20 more if it goes right to the author, not the wholesaler, publisher, retailer etc.

I tried to buy a video directly from the artist because I wanted to give my money to him directly and not to amazon.com or something. He told me to just go ahead and order it on amazon becuase he had never seen, nor would see, a dime from the dvd sales.

[Rick Lodholz]

Not trying to fan any flames here...BUT...I too am at that stage where I am purchasing intructional materials and it can be overwhelming in the amount of material available vs. a cost effective purchase that meets my needs.

I have purchased instructional materials from 4 different providers at this stage and am gonna work on this group of material for some time before I determine what to buy next.

I do take advantage of youtube and the forum members' help. My biggest problem is too much too soon...I need to put in the time playing and attempting to make sense out of all the info I do have.

Just a thought but; how about somewhere on this website having a listing of instructional materials available and a way for members to provide feedback/reviews???

While I understand that reviews may not work for some members...it may be another way to generate discussion and could possibly lead to improved materials being available???

That's my .02 FWIW.

Regards

Rick Lodholz

I do want to say Thank You to all the SGF mems who take the time and expend the effort to help us newbies, it is appreciated and it is invaluable.

[David Beckner]

Just a thought but; how about somewhere on this website having a listing of instructional materials available and a way for members to provide feedback/reviews???

This is very true..

It's much cheaper per unit to produce 50,000 copies of a guitar course than 500 copies of a pedal steel course. That's why the pedal steel courses cost more...Are you saying the studios discriminate against steel guitar players...I have been in studios with bands for cd projects and never noticed any influctuation in price ..

[Don Sulesky]

Herby
Thanks so much for taking the time to make your points about the cost and production of not only your courses which are great, buy any that are for sale.
We all have lowered our prices not only because of the economy but because there are so many courses available today on the Forum.
I could not have said it better and I admire you for your "Not blowing smoke" as you often have said to me.
Thanks my friend for stepping in on this post.
Don

P.S.
Dave, thanks for the wonderful phone call tonight.
You are my type of guy. So glad we see eye to eye on many things.

[b0b]

It's much cheaper per unit to produce 50,000 copies of a guitar course than 500 copies of a pedal steel course. That's why the pedal steel courses cost more...Are you saying the studios discriminate against steel guitar players...I have been in studios with bands for cd projects and never noticed any influctuation in price ..

No, it's not the cost of producing of the master that varies. That's a fixed cost. The difference is the cost of producing the end product. Is the classic economics of scale.

When you are mass producing an item, the more you make, the cheaper each item becomes. Just amortizing the cost of the master for example: Suppose you spent $10,000 making your gold master. If you make 500 units, your master cost was $20/unit - 20 bucks. Okay. If you make 50,000 units, the master cost was $0.20/unit - 20 cents! That's a huge difference in cost.

Then there's the fact that once the presses are rolling, the cost of additional raw materials is minuscule. The largest cost in producing a book is in setting up the presses and getting them moving. It might, for example, cost $10,000 to get the first copy off the presses, then $0.50 per copy after that. Again, you amortize the whole run and divide by the number of copies made to determine your cost per unit. You end up paying $20.50 per unit to print 500 units, but only $.70 per unit if you print 50,000 units.

The trick is that you want to recoup your investment as soon as possible to finance the next project. If a title is only selling 500 units a year, you have to price it high or you'll go out of business pretty quickly.

(Understand that these round numbers are pulled out of the air for instructional purposes. Actual figures are proprietary information rarely shared with the public, but the principles are the same.)

In our steel guitar market, we also have these little mom-and-pop businesses churning out courses at home using computers and copy machines. While the quality of information may be every bit as good as what the big publishers put out, the cost per unit for home production is very high, and the number of units produced is correspondingly very small.

[David Beckner]

DON.. Thanks for taking the time away from your busy schedule for the talk ...Was nice to speak to some one about the frustrations that a beginner finds himself in so many times...

[Tony Glassman]

.......classic economics of scale

Exactly! It's the same reason you can buy a hard-cover best seller for $25.00 while a similarly sized college text-book can easily cost $125.00.

Guitar players make up a huge market, which is probably thousands of times larger than our tiny pedal steel niche.

[David Beckner]

Guitar players make up a huge market, which is probably thousands of times larger than our tiny pedal steel niche...

While this may be true I still can not see and justify something like this book on ebay that is going for $350??? -- might have cost $35.00 to make and it looks like the biggest part of it is useless mambo jumbo -- tunings ,theories etc..

[Tony Glassman]

....useless mambo jumbo -- tunings ,theories etc..

[Brint Hannay]

That book on eBay sold for $315.

David, I don't have a dog in this hunt or an axe to grind, and I am not trying to stir the pot here--(how's that for mixed metaphors?)--but since you mentioned Bruce Bouton by name with a negative review of his material ("junk"), I wonder what the rationale is for not revealing who you're talking about with your several references to the guy who spent much of his video showing off, telling how to tune and promoting sale of his other videos. I'd think you might want to help others not make the mistake, as you consider it, of buying that.

[David Beckner]

I do not recall the names of some of the others because I have throwed them in the garbage where they belong.aprox.$140.00 worth....You can go to Mel Bay or Homespun either one and see these -- just search for psg ...

[Chuck Thompson]

David, as a favor to you - please feel free to mail me any of the other junk instruction that you buy. Mambo jumbo theories, Bruce Bouton et al.

[Tony Prior]

With high regard to both Herb and Dons responses as well as Bob's insightful "economics of it all" wisdom, other factors can come into play.

Anytime a product is brought to market, Car, Lamp, Steel Guitar program etc...one has to have a plan of where the product will fit in the market first, not as an after thought. Then we attempt to bring it to market , we either do it or end up with a 1000 pound Gorilla.

When I produce a program I aim at a specific price point within a defined qty which is not a million. Some programs exceed the qty, some get close others fall short but all are within range initially. There are some fixed hard costs, licensing, CD's ,printing, postage...note that labor is not mentioned yet.

I think that the programs that end up at higher costs probably may not have had a specific goal in sight and ended up as they would say " over budget". It doesn't mean they are not worth it, just that the price may approach prohibitive.

Teachers of music (programs) are not going to retire on the proceeds, it's more a work of love and passion while hopefully some funds are collected to at least keep up with costs.

At the same time I do agree that $60 video's are not my own idea of a " market target", although others may not agree.

My most recent purchase was "The 335 Book" by Mike Ihde, probably one of the best music book values I have ever purchased at around $35. Years back I also purchased a program from Herby, It wasn't cheap but a section of it it did offer exactly what I was looking for . Another example of a purchase was a Joe Pass video lesson, not cheap, I have only viewed the first 15 min's or so, that 15 min's set a new reference for my guitar playing ( chordal wise) for the past 15 years ! Maybe one day I'll view the next 45 min. but keep in mind, I put the first 15 min into practice and use , and that took years to develop, now it is second nature.

I think if we as students ( we are all students) are expecting 100% fulfillment from each program we purchase that is a mistake, we should each get some value out of a program, a value that we can carry forward, something we learned and stuck in auto pilot. How much should we pay to learn something, even one thing, that we carry around for the rest of time ? $5,$10,$50,$100? Robben Ford charges $300/hour for a lesson if you can actually book one, I would pay that in a NY minute just to pick his brain on his use of diminished scales. EX: A student was at the house for a Steel lesson not long ago and at one point we were discussing a chord position change with the E and F levers, he looked at me and said, that's it, that is worth the entire cost of the lesson ! He got it....He gets it....He took something home with him that will last a lifetime for a few bucks.

Great players do not always make the best teachers just as the best teachers may not be the worlds best players,the best teachers are the ones who can get the point across in a style that the student is comfortable with and understands.

If anyone has a moment they can view my website and view the catalog of programs that I produce and offer, the content is specific, targeted and " quite on purpose"...

www.tprior.com

Thanks to those who have purchased and continue to do so,it is very much appreciated.

This is a great topic and thread, maybe one of the best of the century !

t

[James R. Cole]

There are three basic styles of learning. Audio, visual and kinesthetic. Some people are able to adapt to more than one style while others may only do well with one or two particular styles.
Someone who is a hands on learner may have difficulty with oral instruction. This doesn't mean the material isn't good, it just isn't right for them.
Just as there are differnt types of learners there are different types of instructors. Maybe it's a matter of determining what method or methods are right for you and finding material that fits your style of learning.
Just my opinion.

[Don Sulesky]

Quote from Tony.
Teachers of music (programs) are not going to retire on the proceeds, it's more a work of love and passion while hopefully some funds are collected to at least keep up with costs.

I think Tony is so right here on this point.
None of us who produced our courses will ever get rich doing them for the steel guitar world of players.
Many of us I believe, my self included do it for the LOVE of sharing what we have learned over the years
at the fairest price we can and try to keep our heads above water with our cost.

I know from my point of view when I started there wasn't much if anything out there but a few courses such as Winnie Winston's book
which I still feel to this day is the way many of us old geezers learned
the basics of the Pedal Steel.
I often tell my students "what I just taught you today took me years to learn".
Some understand this and others because there is so much info out there today don't grab my point.
They want it now.
Thankfully the 2 students I have right now will go home and practice their lessons over and over and I can see their progress.
I have had students in the past who just want to learn a song and don't care about the basics.
After a few leassons I give them the boot and say "Good Luck".
I know this was off topic but it does backup some of the teaching courses and some points that some have made in the above posts.
This is a great thread.
Don

[Tony Prior]

And yet Don, so eloquently brings up yet another valid, very valid point...( what a guy)


"I want it now"


Just like Hot and Now Burgers !

How many times have we seen students, or early players state something like " Don't bore me with any theory"..." just show me how to play ". We have all read those comments now and then.

I recall sending out a package from Fleabay, the guy sent me a note telling me he was going to file a negative feedback because I did not send him a DVD, never mind that the add was clear, TAB and CD with tracks. He pretty much didn't care. Then he was angry because he had a gig in a few nights and he needed to learn to play the song in time for the gig. He wanted to SEE it, not hear it or use tab. I did what was called for, I refunded his money and told him to keep the program. I guess I can chalk him off to unsatisfied customer !

Like Don above,( many of us ) I go back several decades, we didn't have a forum with tab and Emails to use to get advice or information. I guess I would say that we learned the Instrument first and the songs second, we didn't have a HOT and NOW. Heck I never even heard of all these players that are now common household names.

We have a great Instrument and several fine players and teachers offering what they have learned for a very reasonable fee. But it all does come back to the music, at some point to progress , even with the worlds best teacher/player music program, to become a musician , at any level, the music has to be learned and understood, you can't bypass that part of the process even if it is a minimum knowledge of I,IV and V progressions and how they are related. We can fight that all day long but at the end of the day it's a fight the student will not win.

Every program needs a willing student with an open mind.

I remember I read somewhere way back then that Rusty Young was writing a book on Pedal Steel Guitar, I went to Manny's in NY and asked for it..

they said.."Who's Rusty Young " ???

t

[Herb Steiner]

Another thing I would like to add is that most of the courses on the market are done by top notch pro players, such as: Doug Jernigan, Joe Wright, Bruce Bouton, Buddy Emmons, Jeff Newman. These are all some of the best in the business so to me that is worth something as these guys have been there and have the pro experience behind them.

Not referring to anyone specifically who's posted in this thread, but there are those here in Forumland who have previously critcized as worthless the instructional material produced by the fellows listed in Herby's quote above, as well as very worthy material created by other talented teachers.

Invariably, these critics are inexperienced players who are frustrated with the materials they have because they haven't gotten what they've expected, not necessarily in the materials presented, but in terms of their results.

They gripe as if they ordered a prime rib dinner and received a salami sandwich.

Rather than look inward, they blame the material for their lack of progress. It seems I rarely read anyone who opines "this stuff is great and it's at too high a level for me right now." Or perhaps, "I really need to knuckle down and practice more if I'm going to get this." Or even, "I don't understand this, maybe I should ask some more questions until it does dawn on me." Or even "I need stuff on a more elementary level."

It's never about their inexperience, inadequacies, laziness, absence of determination, or simply lack of talent. It's the course material that's no good.

America in the 21st Century. It's always somebody else's fault, isn't it? Personal responsibility be damned.

To me this is really unfair, arrogant, and also destructive, because other new players who need good instruction may read these "opinions" of people who, frankly, don't have enough experience in the world of steel guitar to be telling anyone ANYTHING that might be considered knowledgeable opinion. Based on what they've read, the Pilgrim could reject out-of-hand great material that might help them grow, given they have more perserverance, musical experience, understanding, or just plain TALENT than the original complainer.

I also read posts from guys who've only owned one brand of steel guitar, and for a very short time at that, commenting on the qualities, tuning procedures, company policies, sound, pedal action, etc. of guitars they've never even seen, much less been in the same room with, not to mention ever having played one. One common example: guys who talk about the tuning and complications of an Emmons Original when they've never been around one. "But my friend owned one once, and he said..."

That's one downside of these Internet forums. Those who know nothing but think they do speak as loud... or LOUDER... than those with the wisdom of experience.

When challenged, the newbies claim loudly and with indignation "hey, my opinion is just as valid as Paul's/Herby's/Bruce's/Buddy's/et al.'s opinion!"

WRONG! It's may be THEIR opinion, but it's not as valid as an experienced player's opinion; I cringe when I see them insult guys who have spent their entire lives devoted to an instrument that the newby just picked up 6 months ago, upon which he couldn't find his ass with a search warrant and both hands tied behind his back, by claiming his opinion is the equal of theirs.

Where do these people get these ideas? Do they go to their doctor with the attitude "hey, my opinion is just as good as this clown's is" when they get a diagnosis they don't want to hear?

By saying theese things they stifle the learning opportunity of those new players who DO understand that a lifetime of experience DOES give a teacher and/or player the perspective to state an opinion with authority.

Newbies, you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own FACTS. There's nothing wrong or dishonorable by "not getting it" immediately. What is dishonorable is not getting it, and immediately blaming others when you don't.

[Bent Romnes]

Herb, THANK YOU for that well thought out post. You hit on all the truths that I was trying to get across earlier and more or less got blasted for it by the thread's originator.
You said, more eloquently, what I was trying to say at the start. We do NOT blast the pros here who put out a fine, useful product by calling them clowns, not fit for fire wood etc etc even if these adjectives might not have been aimed at any one in particular. And then for him to have the audacity to hang out one player in particular and call his course for junk. This behavior should not be allowed or at least we should be able to tell some common codes of conduct without getting chastised for it.

Honestly, when I read all these negative adjectives at the start of this thread, I felt hurt on behalf of fine players and teachers such as Bruce Bouton, Jeff Newman et al.

Maybe my post will be taken as whining by some but sorry, I need to get this off my chest and Herb was the catalyst for me to do so. Thanks again Herb.

That aside, this thread has developed into an interesting and educational one after you pros started participating!

[David Beckner]

Newbies, you're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own FACTS. There's nothing wrong or dishonorable by "not getting it" immediately. What is dishonorable is not getting it, and immediately blaming others when you don't

I agree and am not ashamed when I do not get it..I have sent numerous email to different ones on this forum alone and asked questions about things I do not understand..I have also made numerous phone calls to certain ones as well..

BUT............ What is there to get but utter confusion when you watch some of the material or read the book..Then you sit and scratch your head in confusion..I'll give you some quick examples....Jeff Newman says in his video.." The only picks you can use for steel guitaar are the picks that I sell - you CAN NOT use Dunlop picks ..they just wont work..."......NOW watch the Bruce Bouton or Joe Wright video..."Picks are not important as to what you use.mine are a plain old set of Dunlop..Not important what picks you use - technique is what we're after....
" NOW I'm confused "

Another example is tremolo..
Jeff Newman says "tremolo has to be used for EVERY NOTE ...Just kinda hold your bar loose and let it sorta flop around in your hand."
Boughton"tremolo is not of importance but it does give you a nice effect every now and then..Roll the bar - dont be all floppy and messy with it."
" Now I'm Really confused"

I also have a book laying here...
The first 22 pages are " The history of steel" Why I like steel""Why I chose to write this book"
2 pages of ' how to read tab' 2 pages of exercise...4 pages of songs...10 pages of chord theory ...6 pages of 'advance training'...8 pages of tuning....Finally 11 pages of 'how to order the following titles' 63 pages of insanity for the low price of $42.95....

[Bill Moore (RIP)]

David, you either want to play bad enough to devote the time and effort required, or you don't. If you can't learn from the Jeff Newman courses, you are going to have some problems. His material was designed to eliminate a lot of the variables that make learning harder. He says his picks are the best, in my opinion, for what it is worth, that is correct. They are intended to work the best with the style of picking and blocking he taught. If you follow his lessons, LEARN what he tries to teach, have PATIENCE, and understand that nothing is guaranteed, you should be able to reach a level of competence. You probably will not ever be as good a player as Herby Wallace, Jim Cohen, or Herb Steiner, genuine pros that have tried to offer you some advice in this thread, but you would be able to call yourself a steel guitarist. Good luck to you.

[Bent Romnes]

David, let me address a couple of things you mentioned here.
I don't think you quoted Jeff accurately here.
"The only picks you can use for steel guitar are the picks that I sell" What I remember Jeff saying is Dunlops are not as good because of the band sticking out a bit and can hook on the string next to the one you want to pick. This is true, I have experienced that and for MY picking style I cannot use Dunlops.
What he said was more likely like: I have a good pick to offer as an alternative to Dunlop. As you get gain more experience on the steel, you will maybe discover that Dunlops are the picks for you. Thing is, Jeff had to have certain rules to go by if he was to teach you his method, certain picks was part of this method. You have to look at the end result: Despite all the little things that confuse you now, would you still say that Jeff ended up teaching quality steel to the multitudes? Of course you don't know this yet. But sit back, listen and read what those multitudes are saying today..The vast majority will say that Jeff was the best teacher around. That's how we learn this unique instrument: Listen to what others say; people with experience. The more you are willing to learn and absorb, the less your confusion will be. Hang in there.

[Herb Steiner]

David
So Jeff has an opinion about picks that differs from Joe Wright and differs from Bruce Bouton. And I see from your brief excerpts that they also differ in their approach to tremolo.

And your point is?

Rarely are things in the creative fields as cut-and-dried, black-and-white, as we'd be comfortable with. Every discipline has proponents with opinions that are contradictory to each other, from visual art (totally subjective) to mathematics (highly quantifiable at low levels, extremely theoretical at high levels).

Look at economics as an example. Every practitioner of the art, those from Harvard, University of Chicago, Yale, Stanford, Northwestern... you name the school... all have differing opinions on where our financial system will go. Is any one opinion more valid than the others? Undoubtedly it will be, but that will be proven by time, the actions of the marketplace, and the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

The difference is this: opinions that vary from or even contradict each other are still worthy of consideration because they come from people highly educated and experienced, with a proven track record, in the discipline they're discussing.

Milton Friedman having an opposing view than that of John Kenneth Galbraith is something I will pay attention to and try to decide for myself what my personal philosophy is.

Joe The Septic Tank Guy going head to head with Milton Friedman, OTOH, would be a "hey you, sit down and keep quiet" moment.

Good lord, this is music, David, not 10th grade algebra. There are frequently no hard-and-fast rules about technique or equipment that absolutely MUST be obeyed. The proof is what comes out of the amplifier. Both tremolos sound good, and they sound different. Jeff was very proud of his picks, and in fact I use them and feel they're superior to other picks I've tried. But who can deny that Joe Wright is a monster, as is Bruce. I don't care if they make picks out of used china plates, if they can make the music, it's good for them.

[b0b]

I also have a book laying here...
The first 22 pages are " The history of steel" Why I like steel""Why I chose to write this book"
2 pages of ' how to read tab' 2 pages of exercise...4 pages of songs...10 pages of chord theory ...6 pages of 'advance training'...8 pages of tuning....Finally 11 pages of 'how to order the following titles' 63 pages of insanity for the low price of $42.95....

FWIW, I'd like to read that. Steel guitar history, chord theory and tunings are among my favorite steel guitar topics.

What's the title? Who wrote it?

[Ben Jones]

different teachers have different methods i guess.

"tremolo on every note? the only picks you can use are the ones i sell?"

If those truly are the teaching in the material you described...ask yourself, does that seem right for ME? cause it seems insane to me frankly, whereas Bouton's advice seems dead on in your example.

again i gotta ask. what was wrong with the Bouton video for a beginner? what made it "junk" to you? whereas I consider it excellent?

the problem with having materials reviewed here, as suggested above, is exactly that; One persons junk is another persons ...um, not junk. Often, as Herb mentioned, you'll have totally ignorant neophyte newbs lashing out at material merely because they are frustrated with their inability to grasp it. also, it's subjective what makes good instructional material. Some people wanna spend 4 hours a day practicing Joe Wright picking excercises with four fingerpicks on their hand, some people want 60 licks in 60 minutes, others wanna learn London Deriere from a tab book. Its nice when a sample of the material is offered so you can kinda see what you are buying into.

none of the instructional material is as good as a one on one lesson or playing on the bandstand but i understand those things arent always immedaitely available to the beginner.

good luck.
I recommend Boutons dvd for beginners.
Jaydee Maness material for intermediate to advanced.
Mickey Adams youtube for FREE.
Rebel Ricky site for tabs and sound samples FREE.
Searching this forum and posting your questions .
$10? but priceless.
and joining a band as soon as possible, its never too soon.

[Bob Hoffnar]

David,
You would benefit from a little one on one instruction to clarify what you see as contradictions in your books and DVDs. There are the same issues in the classical string bass world. One guy says to use a French bow and another says to use a German style. After that the German bow guys have several different ways of holding the bow. After practicing for many hours a day and working with a bunch of different teachers it became clear that a German bow being held with a Czech grip worked the best for me. Nobody was wrong.

Another example is tremolo..
Jeff Newman says "tremolo has to be used for EVERY NOTE ...Just kinda hold your bar loose and let it sorta flop around in your hand."
Boughton"tremolo is not of importance but it does give you a nice effect every now and then..Roll the bar - dont be all floppy and messy with it."
" Now I'm Really confused"

There is no contradiction in this statement if you understand the context. Both statements are working towards the same goal depending on if the assumed student grips the bar too hard or not hard enough. The job of the student is to take the advise of the teacher and try it and see if it works for his particular situation. Unfortunately this take hours of daily practice over the coarse of years. There are no shortcuts to being a good player.

A recent example of "contradiction" I personally ran into was how to hold the bar. Years ago I spent hours with Buddy Charleton working on nothing but my left hand. Then I tracked down Joe Wright at a steel show and gave him a little cash to show me how he holds the bar. They both do it differently but it showed me how I was screwing up and gave me a direction to work towards. Then a few weeks ago I had Eddie Rivers (Asleep at the Wheel) come over and he told me I was holding the bar wrong. After working with him on it I found that there was a problem with the lower note clarity in my forward slants. I used Eddies "contradiction" to slightly modify how I hold the bar and improve my playing and it did.

The way I look at it is if I measure my practicing by hours a week instead of hours a day there is no way I will ever play steel on a professional level.