Instructional material prices

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 26 Apr 2010 7:51 pm

yes, good instruction for steel SHOULD cost more
JIM I could not agree more
now..put yourself in my shoes for a moment ..you just spent $ 55.99 and $34.99 plus shipping for 2 videos the first one there is a guy on there - show off for $25 minute..5 minutes of tuning and another 15 minutes how to obtain more of his videos....The next one pretty much the same but the guy shows 10 minutes of tuning and 5 minutes of telling you the difference in set ups ...NOW did you get your moneys worth as far as instruction..??NOT ME

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 26 Apr 2010 7:52 pm

yes, good instruction for steel SHOULD cost more
JIM I could not agree more
now..put yourself in my shoes for a moment ..you just spent $ 55.99 and $34.99 plus shipping for 2 videos the first one there is a guy on there - show off for $25 minute..5 minutes of tuning and another 15 minutes how to obtain more of his videos....The next one pretty much the same but the guy shows 10 minutes of tuning and 5 minutes of telling you the difference in set ups ...NOW did you get your moneys worth as far as instruction..??NOT ME.... NO IT WASNT NEWMAN NOR BOUGHTON (before anybody thinks that)

Keith Davidson · Post by **Keith Davidson** » 26 Apr 2010 7:58 pm

Wow, this is different! This is turning into a he said she said post.

I'm a total newb guys - got my guitar 2 weeks ago. Had to wait a week for it due to circumstances beyond my control.

While I was wating very impatiently I wanted to try and learn something, anything, it didn't matter, just something to get me started.

I did a search on youtube and within a couple of hours had close to 150 bookmarks of great info - and ALL FREE. To top it off, as the golf expression goes, "these guys are good"!

I couldn't believe that someone with that much talent and ability would take a big chunk of their own time and put something like that together. I thought I hit the lotto!

The second resource I found was this board. I cannot say enough about the assistance I received in the last 2 weeks. It's been incredible to say the least. I have had numerous people emailing me tabs, info, sound files, etc. to help me out with my questions and my quest to learn this facinating instrument that seems to require full body coordination to play.

Good courses, bad courses, whatever. In the end, check a review on the courses prior to purchasing. Check on this forum with guys/gals that may have purchased the same and know whether it's good or bad. With over (if my math is correct) 9000 members I'm sure we could find out what is good and what is worthless.

Without buying any courses I could probably spend a year on stuff from this site alone and never come close to getting through all of it.

Let's not forget what this forum is for guys, sure we need to vent every now and then but the bottom line is we're a community that is here to help each other become better players.

Not too many people like to talk about steel guitar -BUT WE DO!

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 26 Apr 2010 8:05 pm

Keith you spoke some words of wisdom there. It is nice to see you discovered the youtube videos and the great help available on this forum.
You also said something important when you suggested we check with members before buying a course.
Good luck in you steel pursuit!

Keith Davidson · Post by **Keith Davidson** » 26 Apr 2010 8:19 pm

Thanks Bent, this forum is a good hangout for the experienced who may or may not at their own discression post some helpful insight. For me and others like me who are starting out, it is an invaluable piece of the puzzle.

I can understand David's frustration as well. I've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt in other aspects of instruction and have found there are those who just can't teach and should never try. Unfortunately, there are also those who use the same venue to display their ability through the use of so called instructional videos in hopes that newbs will be so in awe of their prowess that they will purchase just about anything they have to offer in hopes of becoming just like them.

Instruction is supposed to be geared to the level of the student NOT the teacher.

Without naming names, there are a number of them on youtube and on this forum that exemplify just that. They are great, they know how to get to our level and get the point across.

They take things slow, they remind you of pedals, knees, grip, string and bar positions. Kudos to all who can do this AND as well to those who honestly try and help out.

As someone stated earlier, sometimes when you are at a higher level for a while, you forget how important all the small stuff is. There are those of us who can't run yet - we are still trying our best to walk.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 26 Apr 2010 8:26 pm

JEEPERS,CREEPERS,

David,You come out of the chute mighty hard

Just take another toke and chill out.

Hang in there about twenty more years and you can join that secret society.

YOU BETCHA,DYK?BC.

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 26 Apr 2010 8:42 pm

Bama..If your gonna ride the bull there is only one way to come out --WIDE OPEN...I was not intending to cause any contrversey ..just merely stating my opinion as to the prices of materials..BUT as usually happens you get taken to the wood shed because your a newby ..I am past the Mr.Nice Guy point and crawl out from under the bus any more instead of allowing myself to be thrown under it...If I have to wait 20 years to be part of a society - then I'll pass on that ...I just dont think I'm too good to answer a question that is asked by a newby if I can help..who knows maybe some day down the road that same newby may show me something I dont know..BUT hey wait a minute , If I have been playing for 20 years and am a member of a society I know everything...ooops my bad

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Apr 2010 1:38 am

ok, I'll play and I certainly do need mean to offend anyone, this is just my point of view.

We are fortunate to have several fine programs available from several fine teachers right here on this forum.

I have over a dozen Steel Guitar programs offered and have done well with them which means they are a value and priced correctly. Generally my programs do very well over the net via EBAY, repeat students,other forums or my website. This forum generates very little activity.

Some important points to ponder...

A program / book that teaches how to tune or set-up the instrument should be disclosed up front, this can be very valuable to some, a waste of time for others.

TAB ( free) is not a music lesson, it's like handing someone a road map and saying good luck finding your way home, it is also an interpretation of the authors version of music. Sometimes it is correct and sometimes it is way off and can lead to bad habits and just flat out wrong positions and phrasing.

Teaching programs are supposed to teach, not impress the student with the instructors ability. If a program is used to promote the instructors ability then it is a bust right out of the gate.

Steel Guitar programs generally include TRACKS which in itself can take hours of planning , arranging and recording. In my case,( and others) I record multi track with wood Instruments.

Many Steel Guitar teaching programs with tracks and included written TAB are licensed , distribution of music is not free. It costs real money to distribute/sell/giveaway music programs.

One can only place a value on a program once the program is completed following the instructors course outline. If one does not do that then there is NO VALUE, from Free to $69...it's all useless.

When was the last time anyone purchased a Guitar method program for $10 and was able to communicate with the instructor either by phone or EMAIL ?

At the end of the day I would agree that there are countless Guitar and Steel Guitar programs/books out there and just as many sitting on a shelf in a closet untouched for various reasons, one being that they are not a good teaching tool. Value was not discovered, maybe not even offered. Or maybe not enough time was put in by the student.

Putting a teaching project together at a value price is no easy task , those of us that do it don't just do it in a few minutes and offer it for sale. In my case, I can easily have as many as 40 hours into a single one song project. This can be 40 hours over a month's time. Song selection is paramount, arranging for Steel guitar, recording back-up tracks and of course interesting Steel Guitar music that can add value to an interested student is a must. The material must be presented in a format which the student is excited about completing. Then I write Tab,copy and print Tab, burn CD's, pay the royalties, upload clips to the net, advertise the content, no hidden secrets.

All this for $12 including shipping.
Hello retirement !

Speaking for me only, my rewards come from students who purchase the programs I have produced and they send me back an MP3 of them playing over the track included in the project. That's worth way more than the $12 or $15.

Bottom line, if a program has value and a student actually takes something away from it , price is not an issue, never is.

thanks
t

www.tprior.com

PS: And yes, I had been a technical instructor for over a decade in the USA and Europe, preparing lesson plans, course programs and most important, insuring that the students actually finished the classes learning something. Learning how to teach effectively is just as hard as figuring out what it is you are going to teach.

Don Sulesky · Post by **Don Sulesky** » 27 Apr 2010 4:25 am

David
Take a look at my site.
None of my E9th Courses with Rhythm tracks are over $20.
In fact all but my EZ E9th course are $18 w/S&H included. This doesn't even take into the weeks it takes to do them.
Tony makes a good point.
I get many emails about a tab or section of my courses and I am always there to answer any and all questions free of charge.
I even had a call from Australia 2 weeks ago.
http://donzpedalsteel.com/
Don
P.S. Thanks for the P-mail Dave.

Ga McDonnell · Post by **Ga McDonnell** » 27 Apr 2010 6:41 am

Right now on eBay there's a book of 52 songs for steel guitar going for $315, and the auction isn't closed yet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/52-songs-diagrammed ... 19bb92d145

There's no reserve, and it started at $4.99. Currently has 20 bids, and comes up in a list of "most watched" auctions.

It's mostly just tab, but does have the timing indicated, (which shows that the tabber knows music).

Sounds like a lot of money, but the cost per song is only about $6. Not a lot for the time spent.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Apr 2010 7:03 am

regarding the EBAY link above it looks like someones collection of tab , I can't say for certain but it does not appear that all the tab was written by the same person as there is a large degree of variance from tab to tab, at least shown the photo's. A collection like this of music tabbed may very well be worth what it is selling for but this is not a teaching course, it's a collection of tabs, a very large collection of tabs.

In comparison though, some folks right here on this forum are offering large libraries of tab free for the download from there websites,all you gotta do is go get it.

t

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 27 Apr 2010 7:32 am

When was the last time anyone purchased a Guitar method program for $10 and was able to communicate with the instructor either by phone or EMAIL ?
I will answer this question first...Just a few days ago...

I am also aware of such things as royalties and copy rights..I have written several pieces of music and have catalogued songs myself..

program / book that teaches how to tune or set-up the instrument should be disclosed up front, this can be very valuable to some, a waste of time for others...I agree with you 100%.

TAB ( free) is not a music lesson, it's like handing someone a road map and saying good luck finding your way home, it is also an interpretation of the authors version of music.....I again agree with you ..Tab (free or bought.) IS a road map to familiarize you with certain changes,licks etc..-- case in point being ..I tell my guitar students " Use this for reference and then learn the song in as many keys as you can..Reason being You learn a song in (C) you go out some night to play and the singer does nt feel like (C) tonight and cahnges key -then what are you going to do?"

Teaching programs are supposed to teach, not impress the student with the instructors ability. If a program is used to promote the instructors ability then it is a bust right out of the gate........WeLCOME TO MY WORLD.- I have several of these ,you want to buy some for what I paid for them??

Tony your views have been very helpful and it seems you have touched on why I ask this question..

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 27 Apr 2010 7:38 am

I looked at the ebay ad you mentioned..It is a collecstion of tab some one has copied and put in a binder...There are alot of FAKE BOOKS out there that cost a lot less..Wonder if the buyer knows this ??

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 27 Apr 2010 7:47 am

Don ...I looked at your material and was VERY impressed..will order from you soon as I get a few extra funds..Forgive me for saying this- testimonials DO NOT impress me..Joe may like something and sue doesnt- every body has an opinion..WHAT DOES impress me is the fact that right up front you state -I CUT OUT THE BLAH - GOT MY ATTENTION....It seems as tho you are a person who cares about what he does and takes pride in the fact rather than seeing how many GREEN BACKS you can take in...THANK YOU ...MY ORDER WILL BE COMING SOON.

Billy Murdoch · Post by **Billy Murdoch** » 27 Apr 2010 8:09 am

David,
This has been a very interesting post.I am happy that it has not degenerated into a slagging match as it very well could have and I commend the members for being mature enough to understand each other, if only a little.
I am also happy that You have not named the DVD courses You have been speaking about.
May I ask, How did You select these courses?
Perhaps You sought the advice of this forum before buying?or maybe found them from adverts elsewhere.
I have found that the best advert is word of mouth,I would think that any "Fourm" member would have suggested worthwhile material.
Best regards
Billy

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 27 Apr 2010 8:31 am

Billy ,yes I too am glad this has settled down and become a topic with out any mud slinging..I just get irritated when I spend money for something useless that is only worth a fraction of what is paid...

To answer your question about the materials and how Icame about them....A friend and I are both registered teachers of 6 string guitar with a certain publishing company .Every so often we are sent what I guess one maay call preview packages of new material that is coming out....I opted to buy the steel guitar package and noticed that the material was on average 60% higher than that I would have paid for any other material..Did not realize this at the time.(my fault I know)....Anyway I get the material and the first video has some one on there who does nothing but show off his playing ability for 20 minutes straight before even saying "hello" then spends 5 minutes on tuning, followed by another 15 minutes or so telling how glad this person is that you bought the video and "be sure to buy more of my series "... I think this person is a complete joke and cares nothing about this other than how much money ripped out of peoples hand..Now I have a $55.95 video that is not worth throwing in the trash because there is no way I will ever get back what I put in to it...I hate to see another beginner make the same mistake I made...

Herby Wallace · Post by **Herby Wallace** » 27 Apr 2010 8:52 am

I really hate to get involved in this discussion,but I have been doing instruction material since 1969. I did the very first course for the Emmons Guitar Co. that year which came out about a year after Jeff Newman's courses were introduced, so I don't claim to have all the answers, but I have been doing it for a long time. The main problem with pricing is that the steel guitar market is so small compared to most other instruments that there is no way to compete on price. In other words, printing cost, CD and cassette duplication and so on are on such a small quantity that we have to charge more. Nowadays with the all the free things available through the internet, players like myself find it even more difficult to sell instruction courses. Also, for what it's worth, some prices are lower than in the past. For example, the first course I did with the Emmons Co. in 1969 sold for $29.95 which included tab for 10 songs and an LP record. I have some courses today in my line that contain more material and cost even less. Also, my courses are recorded in a studio with live musicians, so that is another expense involved. If I had to sell courses for a lower price like a guitar book or keyboard book, I couldn't afford to even do any. Another thing I would like to add is that most of the courses on the market are done by top notch pro players, such as: Doug Jernigan, Joe Wright, Bruce Bouton, Buddy Emmons, Jeff Newman. These are all some of the best in the business so to me that is worth something as these guys have been there and have the pro experience behind them.

Herby Wallace

David Beckner · Post by **David Beckner** » 27 Apr 2010 9:11 am

Mr . Herby Wallace ..Thank You for your input on this thread ,It is very much taken as admiration when a pro such as yourself steps in and shares his wisdom.Yes Sir I know that you are in competition with a lot of the freebies out there and I look up to you and others that you have mentioned, but also there are those who see this as just a way of making money and are not helping to learn any thing from them..I think you and I would both agree they should come with a warning label...BTW . I have a course of yours that I boughyt,I listened to it and although at this time it is ahead of where I am.. I am sure that when the time comes I will find it very useful..it is very well written and informative...Thank you again.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 27 Apr 2010 9:56 am

since the advent of amazon.com and its star rating, i seldom buy anything these days without going on there to read the reviews, which while not perfect at least give a good rundown of pros/cons. there have been many items i was interested in that after reading some reviews, i didnt buy, and others that point you in a better direction which i did buy and was very happy with.

the problem with ANY pre-packaged instruction is that unless you are an absolute beginner, its hard to expect it to be designed for your needs - you dont need someone to show you how to tune or what a 1-4-5 progression is. the Bouton DVD, while great for a beginner, is more a "talk tape" (its like 70% talk and 30% application) than an instructional DVD (but its only $20...so) - the Newman courses are good for...dont flame me hear, they are GREAT courses...people who need a lot of hand holding and a slower pace and the emmons/franklin/seymour/wallace courses are for the player who only needs the "idea seed" to up and run with - ie, there is a lot of info but its not laid out right there for you to be lazy and shown every little detail - you have to put in the work behind the steel with the info presented - and i think thats the best route for the intermediate player.

i sort of side with David that there is nothing worse than spending $50+ on instruction that doesnt do anything for your playing or is readily found elsewere - but it works for others.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 27 Apr 2010 10:06 am

It's much cheaper per unit to produce 50,000 copies of a guitar course than 500 copies of a pedal steel course. That's why the pedal steel courses cost more.

Jerome Hawkes · Post by **Jerome Hawkes** » 27 Apr 2010 10:37 am

i wanted to add, that what amazes me today is the amount of steel instruction, in any style you desire, that is out there - most if not all self published.
back when i started dabbling in steel in the early 90's, pre-internet, you had your choice of just 2-3 methods by the large publishing co's (yeah, i found out later about others, but unless you were subscribing to the steel newsletters you didnt know about them)
in summary, we are so lucky now - AND - the good thing is that most of all the proceeds go DIRECT to the musician. in a way, i dont feel bad about paying $10-$20 more if it goes right to the author, not the wholesaler, publisher, retailer etc.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 27 Apr 2010 11:14 am

b0b wrote:It's much cheaper per unit to produce 50,000 copies of a guitar course than 500 copies of a pedal steel course. That's why the pedal steel courses cost more.

Exactly, b0b. And that brings us back to David's original question and my original answer. Thanks.

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 27 Apr 2010 11:44 am

hmmm....I was lucky to have a teacher that gave me lessons. I haven't bought but one teaching book,and that was Scotty's book. I think it was $25.00 and came with tab and a c.d. of how the exercises should sound. Absolutely worth it,as I still refer back to it. Mickey's book is well worth it,as it also comes with a DVD. Lot's of good stuff there as it also corresponds with the stuff he's done on youtube. I remember those Doug Marks "Metal Method" courses you used to order back in the day. They got you going...LOL !

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 27 Apr 2010 11:49 am

took a while to get to the end was like a classic soap for a while then the wind died down, well let me chime in first of all I am no pro by far but want to be so in order for me to get there I work very hard at learning this thing it takes years yes years not months so one needs to get that in there head to begin with.
my you tube videos teach me more then you might know. for when you slow down take your time and try to figure out how those guys did that you are learning. now this dont mean you always have to play that song that way but it sets a scene for you to dwell on. also each video I do I do make up a tab for it and lay it in a folder when I get 25 or so I go down town and pay 7.00 to have each book made. I leave the person the option to just watch the video over and over for free or buy tab to go with it for 14.99 and I pay shipping. so all in all I make about 3.00 per book and really not that when I buy the envelopes and trip to the post office to mail them. I have learned more by doing this for my own playing. not to add that with the help of this forum and my you tube videos I am now working good paying gigs something I could not do with out the forum. I also buy other steel players courses to support them as well. I think I bought about every thing Herby had on C6th a few years ago, I have bought and did go to Jeff Newmans school before he passed on cost me 400.00 per day and was worth every penny of it. I just bought a course last night for 30.00 its nice to check other peoples way of teaching out. now I must add this I even go watch several pianos videos now you can take that piano teaching and apply it to the steel a lot easier then watching a 6 string guitar video. I can not play a thing on the piano but I can apply the teaching to the pedal steel.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 27 Apr 2010 12:22 pm

Hmmmm...I thought Boutons dvd was an excellent beginners dvd and reasonably priced.
I'd be curious to know specifically what its shortcomings were for the guy that thought it was "junk"?

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